Saiga 12 project

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The deal is, at the back of the carrier, the firing pin protrudes, so as the weapon cycles, the protruding pin slams into the rear trunnion, Cobra fixes this.

Sorry if this is a dumb question but it wasn't clear to me from reading the thread you posted. Is he modifying the bolt or the trunion? What exactly is he modifying? Sorry for being so slow.

Also, and I am not trying to be difficult just seeking info, how big of an issue is that for a gun fired on the proper gas setting? It seemed the damage on his gun might well have come from firing many mangum loads on gas setting two. Also as I am sure you are aware some guns are over or undergassed from the get go, ie over gassed shoot even light low brass bird shot loads on one and undergassed wont them on 2. Provided the gas setting is dialed in, say with a gunfixer plug, will one see the type of wear exhibited in those pics?
 
Looks great! I finished mine this weekend as well:D One question, the nylon hole plugs I got (CSS) have to be completely smashed and hammered into the axle pin holes to go in...they look stupid now...do you think I have the wrong size?

I think the BHO is a good idea for the Saiga-12...I don't need it on my 7.62x39 tho so I didn't get it.

Good job.

~Norinco
 
the axle pin holes to go in...they look stupid now...do you think I have the wrong size?

Im not sure. To be honest I don't know what sizes they come in. I did run into one little hitch on the hole plug install this time around. On one side bith poped right in no probelm. On the other side I samshed about five of them and they just woudn't go in. I finnally just mad the holes slightly larger and then they popped in no problem. If there is no way they will go in then you might see if you can locate plugs of a different size or make the hole fit the plugs better.
 
Yes, the dremel I just went slow taking of a little material until they popped in like the first two. I have never needed to enlarge the holes before. That said, one thing I have learned doing a few different conversions and owning various saiga's is that each one seems to be a beast unto itself. The QC is loose and is the tolerances on the deisgn so it seems they vary a fair amount one to the next. That is why I avoid ever stating definatively what a stock saiga will or wont do etc.
 
The conversion process can offer a host of benefits. I chose to highlight four of them here: balance, ergonomics, trigger pull and looks for me the major one is the improvement made in these respects. I have another S12 that is still in stock form so I was able to make some comparison side by side. I also allowed others to handle them and probed for their opinion. I did this with people familiar and not so familiar with guns.

Balance

The converted saiga has much better balance. The stock gun is front heavy. Holding it one handed with the sporter grip makes this very noticeable. Mag changes, opening a door or anything else that requires holding the weapon with the firing hand in position is MUCH easier with the PG installed where it was designed to reside. This difference was evident to all who handled them side by side. The difference really is significant and vastly improves the gun.

Ergonomics

Another improvement on the converted gun is that with the grip in the proper place the safety is actually within reach. Those famillar with the AK safety selector will know that it still is not the most ergonomic design devised, but being able to reach it without completely removing my trigger had from the grip is nice. On a related note I plan to install an extended mag release. That part would not offer the same advantage on a stock gun.

The gun is overall a slightly more compact package. I don’t have them in front of me to measure (I can do it latter) but the difference in OAL is likely a few inches. Fit of course varies person to person but in handling them the converted gun feels good to me.

Trigger Pull

Another night and day improvement was in the trigger pull. The discerning shooter will immediately notice the mushy trigger created by the wishbone linkage used to move the FCG to the rear. Some will contend that on a shotgun the trigger doesn’t matter much. It may not matter to the extent it would on a precision rifle but I still prefer something better than the spongy stock unit. The tapco G2 provides a vastly superior trigger pull. If the stock unit is a ford pinto the G2 is a BMW. It is lighter cleaner and much crisper. It was another difference than was easily noticeable by anyone who handled both guns. I have heard saiga owners say that their triggers are fine, they have never felt a G2. I am not sure to what degree the polishing affected it. I need to test it with another one of my converted guns.

Looks

Yes I said this project was to make a fighting gun and looks don’t matter too much in that respect. I concede that point. If the sporter configuration was the better fighting gun I would have left it. I would not sacrifice looks for practicality but in this case they were able to go hand in hand. I simply think the PG configuration looks cooler. My informal polling suggest that is the majority opinion. I like pulling out a converted S12 and having people ooh and awe; is that so wrong? In sum, I think the converted s12 looks cooler and while that might not mean much in practical terms it makes me happy.

Conclusion

I am pleased with the first steps of this project. The gun is already a more usable tool. It is better balanced, has better ergos , a clean crisp trigger and just looks much cooler. Additionally I can legally run 8, 10 or 12 round mags (or the MD20 if I were so inclined). Higher mag capacity (to a point) is of significant benefit in a fighting gun. The modifications were very afforadable. Were one to proceed only to this point, it would be a worthwhile venture. Below is a rough cost summary of what I paid to get it to this point.

S12: $450

Stock: $30

PG: $20

FCG: $30

Tromix TG $45

Retainer plate $12

Hole plugs $1

Misc: $10

I am into it nearly $600. Dollar for dollar I think the converted gun is much better at $600 than the stock gun at $450. The place where price really starts to sneak up on you is in mags. Mags are part of what makes a saiga a saiga but they are expensive.
I hope to do a little three gun-esque shooting in a couple weeks and compare it to a 18” pump gun and for fun a coach gun. It ought to be interesting to compare them against the clock and the subjective impressions of various shooters.
 
Part II
The basic conversion is complete and I am fairly happy, but not satisfied. There is still room to make a lot of significant improvement on the weapon. I am building this as a fighting gun. I am one that believes that a fighting gun needs a light. With that in mind I had been searching for a way to mount a light on saiga. While I was searching, Chaos (http://www.chaosus.com/home.html) advertised a sale on their quad and tri rails for the S12. Chaos had built a solid reputation for producing quality product and with the rails on sale for $99 my interest was piqued. This rail is currently on sale again BTW.

The rails are made from 6061 aluminum with a non-reflective Hard coat anodizing. They are manufactured in the US. The tri rail is simply the quad rail sans the top piece. The quad rail is the same price as the tri, so I decided to get it. The quad rail will block the factory sights, but I figured it would still be nice to have the top piece in my parts bin should I want to use it later.

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Upon receiving the rail I hurriedly unpacked it. The first thing I noticed was how light it was. I was worried I might be making the gun nose heavy after having just improved the balance. Holding the rail dissipated my fears. The quad rail weighs in at 14 ounces. Within five minutes of opening the package, I had the trial rail mounted (most of the time was spent trying to locate my tools someone hadn’t put away). I was really pleased with the look. I set the top rail on and liked how it looked. It blocked the factory sights however and so I didn’t bother to screw it on.

The rail appears to be well made and it looks good. Again looks are not what I am after per se, but this rail gives the shotgun a more serious and polished look than the stock plastic unit. In light of the fact that looks don’t matter I have remounted the OME hand guard for now. It is more comfortable than the bare rails. I am still deciding what exactly I want to mount to them. I am not looking to be so tactical that my rails have rails. Rather I will keep it simple. A light, some rails covers and possibly a vertical fore grip are what I am considering right now. After I pick those items up I will remount the rail. I am undecided but I am leaning towards a stubby VFG. The S12 obviously has more recoil than an AR and thus a quality grip is required. I'm eying a tango down stubby, but am undecided.

I'll post some pics of it mounted later.
 
Here is my Sagia-12. I have three 12 rounds mags and a 20 rd drum too. I just got it back from warrentee repairs due to FTE's
 

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I finally got around to taking some pictures of my new chaos rail.

Here is the stock fore grip
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TO remove the stock unit one needs only remove one screw and then slide it off. Sliding it off might require a little coxing with a rubber mallet.
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Here is the quad rail and below is the lower section that can serve as a tri rail on its own.

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Here is a before shot

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And after
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I am not currently running it is a quad rail however. The top section blocks the factory sights. Furthermore I have nothing to put up there right now and thus it would only be dead weight in addition to blocking the sights. I am using only the lower tri rail section. The two pics below show the tri rail alone.

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Thus far I am happy with the chaos rail. Although I haven't been able to really test it out. In the next update I will be adding some accessories to the rail, a light, a VFG and some rails covers. I have the light but am waiting on UPS to bring me the rail covers and the VFG.
 
Why do you call the chaos rail mall ninja crap and think that a plastic one is ok? What would the SMG offer me that the Chaos doesn't? If the rail mounts up solid, is in spec and allows me to put a vert grip and a light on it then it is doing what I want. I guess I am not in the loop enough to know that one brand would be mall ninja and another would be OK. If a functional rail is "mall ninja" to you then so be it. To me the measure of equipment is how it works not what some random NJ internet guy, who cannot even own 2/3 of the guns I own, calls it. Thanks for your input though. Next time I'll make sure I ask what products will let me sit at the cool kids table instead of simply finding one that works, does what I need, and that I like.
 
Girodin, I'm curious about the Chaos rail. It looks like it's angled down from the receiver going towards the muzzle (not parallel to the barrel/bottom of the receiver). Is this noticeable in person?

And does it attach by slipping into the receiver and then screwing into the sling swivel hole on the barrel?

I'm mostly interested in it as an optics mount.
 
I'll have to pull it out and look at it. I see what you are talking about in the pic with the red backdrop. I actually didn't have it screwed on for that picture I just slide it in to the receiver and proped the gun up/ I never noticed anything just looking at it before though. I should mount it on my other gun as well to see. The tolerances on saigas are so loose that no two guns seem to be the same ( I have owned several).

And does it attach by slipping into the receiver and then screwing into the sling swivel hole on the barrel?

Yes

I'm mostly interested in it as an optics mount.

I might use the top rail as an optics mount at some point. That is why I went ahead and got the quad rail. There are members over on the Saiga boards who use it as an optic mount. They could give you better input than I can. I will say it seems like it would be a much better solution than a receiver side mount. They put the optics up way to high for my liking. I know some people like the optic further back, if I wanted that I would do one of two things get the top section that extends back over the dust cover (but does not touch it), or use a beryl style rail. Jack Travers has a fast fire on the dust cover of his competion gun. I am interested in the exact set up. It is a sweet gun and based on the rest of the gun, his shooting, and his other products, I cannot imagine him using a hokey mount or anything that doesn't work well.

EDIT TO ADD NEW INFO
This is the mount that is used on his gun http://store.carolinashooterssupply.com/servlet/-strse-311/Saiga-sight-mount-JTE/Detail?sfs=3f2e39c3

The pics at the begining of this thread show it better. http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=43434&view=&hl="burris fast fire"&fromsearch=1 It is not mounted to the dustcover but rather to the receiver.
 
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Thanks for the reply. I thought I remembered someone else saying that the Chaos rail wasn't quite parallel to the barrel, maybe due to variations in the individual guns?

Like I said, I was looking for an optics mount, and thought the Chaos rail looked sturdier than an Ultimak.
 
Why do you call the chaos rail mall ninja crap and think that a plastic one is ok? What would the SMG offer me that the Chaos doesn't? If the rail mounts up solid, is in spec and allows me to put a vert grip and a light on it then it is doing what I want. I guess I am not in the loop enough to know that one brand would be mall ninja and another would be OK. If a functional rail is "mall ninja" to you then so be it. To me the measure of equipment is how it works not what some random NJ internet guy, who cannot even own 2/3 of the guns I own, calls it. Thanks for your input though. Next time I'll make sure I ask what products will let me sit at the cool kids table instead of simply finding one that works, does what I need, and that I like.

I'm not a fan of rail in general, especially not on a shotgun. The only accessories I can see mounting on this gun would be either a light and/or vertical grip. Lasers and scopes etc. on a shotgun are mall ninja, even more so on CHAOS gear, makers of the infamous mall ninja "porky pine" device. sorry to break it to you. You did a good job on conversion but would ave been better off with the very comfortable stock forearm, the russian stock forearm which features a single rail on the bottom and is identical to the one that comes on the gun, or the SGM Tri rail which is a very simple, comfortable hand guard that has enough rail room to put a light and VFG if you wanted. The only thing worse than the CHAOS rail, IMO, is the HALO rail. You said you wanted something to get the job done, and not care about brand? SGM gets it done for $69, Intrafuse gets it done for $41, and they both not only can mount your equipment but are much lighter and more comfortable than the $99 CHAOS. I'm just a Kalashnikov purist (the simpler the AK the better) offering constructive criticism.

And yes, the CHAOS has issues with being parallel to the bore.

I also really don't care what guns you get to own in your state. We get to own Saigas here in Jersey so I have a good deal of experience with them myself. And if you really don't care what "random internet people" think of your guns, you probably shouldn't have posted 1,079 times on an internet gun forum telling people about your guns.
 
I guess what I'm saying is, on a pump gun, anything besides a light, shell holder, sling or a VFG is mall ninja, but for some reason, on the Saigas, that rule goes out the window, and I have no clue why.
 
If you know something's wrong with the quality of the product and want to give him a heads up, that's one thing. For example, a muzzle break on a Roadblocker that sends shot out sideways, or a UTG rail prone to breaking. That's a perfectly reasonable criticism.

Arbitrarily awarding or subtracting style points from what's presumably a functional tool is a little silly. If he likes it and it works, great. His innovation may teach you something. It may not. The only way to know is to sit back, watch, and see how it works out.

As to why the fashion police don't rain on the Saiga parade -- it's a funky new variant of the AK47. There isn't a legacy to threaten. It's novel enough that it's enjoyed mostly as a tactical toy that can be shoehorned into a variety of roles, and unwieldy enough that it hasn't really threatened any of them. I'm cautiously optimistic. The Saiga trend may spur innovation in a market that hasn't really budged in 50 years. I'm looking forward to seeing what happens.
 
I'm not a fan of rail in general, especially not on a shotgun.

Then don't put rails on YOUR gun.

the only accessories I can see mounting on this gun would be either a light and/or vertical grip.

Hmm seems like that's what I stated I was planning on mounting on it. I am confused as to why you are bothering to comment.

Lasers and scopes etc. on a shotgun are mall ninja, even more so on CHAOS gear, makers of the infamous mall ninja "porky pine" device. sorry to break it to you.

I'm not planning on putting a laser or a scope on it. I might put an optical sight on it when I shoot 3 gun since the saiga has to be in open class anyways. I am sure you think that an optical sight makes no difference, but why do the top competitive shooters use them?

I agree the spikey poking device is silly. If someone else wants to buy it or has a purpose for it great I don't. The fact that a company makes one product I don't want or see a point to does not equate to them automatically having no other worthwhile products. Essentially I wanted an in spec rail to put a light and a VFG on. That is what I got.

I have handled/owned/used the forearms you suggest. I wanted to try the chaos rails as much because it is different from what I have used on my other guns. I have handled a pretty wide variety of products available for saigas. I have owned/own 7 S12, a S410, a S308, and three saiga 7.62X39s, *edited to add my .223* a .223 and I have an order in for the new 5.45x39. Additionally of the people I shoot with regularly 4 or 5 of them own at least on saiga. I have handled a few different types of forearms. How much experience did you say you had with the saiga? I really don't need your opinion of what to put on my gun, but thanks for the unsolicited advice. In short, I am happy thus far with the Chaos rail. After I get to shoot it a lot if I feel it is not as functional as other setups I own or have used I will replace it.

And if you really don't care what "random internet people" think of your guns, you probably shouldn't have posted 1,079 times on an internet gun forum telling people about your guns.[/QUOTE

You really think that all 1, 079 post are me telling people about my guns? You didn't consider that even one of those posts might have had another purpose? Interesting.

I'm just a Kalashnikov purist (the simpler the AK the better) offering constructive criticism.

Based on your first post, I suppose we have different definitions of constructive. Your dislike for Chaos is duly noted however. Thanks for the input.

I guess what I'm saying is, on a pump gun, anything besides a light, shell holder, sling or a VFG is mall ninja, but for some reason, on the Saigas, that rule goes out the window, and I have no clue why.

I was unaware there was a hard and fast universal rule of the universe as to what is "mall ninja." If you are trying to refer to what is widely considered non useful items by serious shotgun users, I don't think many put VFG on pump guns. The accessories that are useful on a gun has much to do with how it will be used. That said not everyone finds the exact same equipment useful even for the same types of tasks or shooting. I set up a competition gun differently than a HD gun (or a carry gun if we are talking pistols). Use what works for you for doing the job you want to do. If the job you want to do is just having fun buy whatever you like.

Is the chaos rail as good as some of the other options? I don't know yet I haven't been able to shoot the gun enough, bang the thing around, etc and evaluate it vis a vis the other setups I have used or seen in use. There is only one thing I am more certain of than the fact that I don't yet know, and that is that you certainly don't.

I typically place little stock in people's opinions about things that they have no experience with.
 
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Girodin, I think you'll get a lot more constructive criticism, (from people who actually know what the hell they're talking about), over at forum.saiga-12.com

There are dozens if not hundreds of members there who have extensive experience with Chaos railed handguards.
 
Looks good man. I'm waiting on all the shotgun guys to start making more rifle parts. I wouldn't mind dropping $100 on a quad rail from Chaos if it fit on my .223.
 
I love my saiga 12
I used a MAA internal block (requires the rear tang to be cut off), Ace side folder adapter, and a MAA billet aluminum stock.

(Wifes cat HAD to be in the picture :rolleyes: )
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This shotgun is lots of fun. :D
 
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