Saiga-12 Yes or no, opinions/hate welcome

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The .410's were/are(?) cheap. Own 2 - love them,my grandkids will have a blast with these. Dove hunting over decoys.
The 20ga. are very reasonable in price. My pick for H.D. use. of the 3 gauges this is offered in just because of weight.
The 12ga. are stupid- recoil,weight,price. I do feel stupid at times.
Man I wish they were offered in 10ga. That would rock with slugs!!!!!!! 2 oz. ( or over 900grs.) of 1600fps hot lead. OoooooHhhhhh Yeahhhhhh!
I love the line "You wouldn't use a woman just for having babies, would you?" They do need to make thanksgiving dressing
 
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Man I wish they were offered in 10ga. That would rock with slugs!!!!!!!

10 rounds of 10ga 3.5" magnum slugs in a semi-auto is possibly too much awesome for one human to handle. :D
 
I don't see the point of semi-auto shotguns with detachable magazines. The loaded magazines are very bulky and very heavy for the limited amount of rounds they hold.

I don't find it any more bulky than any other 30 round mags out there.... If the length is a problem just use the 5 rounders.

To me this is like debating about tubular .22lr vs semi-auto detachable .22lr.

Once the pre-loaded magazines are used up, they are VERY slow to reload.
Have you reloaded the detachable mags?

They load just as fast a tube mag, you put the shell in and push down. How is this slower? The only benefit a tube mag has over the detachable one is that you can use one hand to load the mag, and the other has to hold the gun. Instead of one hand holding the mag on its own and the other loading.

I'll bet that you could load and fire 100 rounds of shotgun ammo faster from a tubular magazine semi-auto than some other shooter with a Saiga and 3 10-round detachable magazines even if he had all 3 mags fully loaded to begin with. He would get off the first 30 rounds faster than you, but after that, you would go past him like he was in reverse gear.
So you're saying that a tubular shotgun with a 5 round cap, will stand up to a Saiga zipping through 30 rounds in 15 seconds? It takes 5 more loads from the initial start to just catch up to 30.

Lets look at this simply from a movement standpoint.
Pump gun with 5 shell cap (minus starting 5) has to be reloaded 19 times.
The Saiga with the 3 starting mags has to be reloaded 7 times and only requires 9 mag changes.

Sorry but even math wise a tube gun beating a detachable mag doesn't make sense. You only have to load 7 times vs 19.

How fast do you think a tube mag loads compared to a detachable mag?

Have you seen this video of a modded saiga with a mag well?

Guy loads and fires 20 rounds in 10 seconds flat. Loading and firing one shell in under 2 seconds is a big deal with speed loaders etc.

And you're telling me that 2 shells a second is some how slower than a tube fed.

Sure.....

Another advantage of the tube fed magazine shotgun is that you can easily "top it off" by adding another couple of rounds at any time. With a detachable magazine gun, you have to remove the magazine to add additional rounds.

And? In both cases you're adding rounds to a partially loaded magazine.

How about this one with clear mags you can see how many rounds you have left unlike tube guns.

Or you can have specialty loaded mags with one set of ammo that you can switch out quickly instead of having to stop and load a special round.
 
The one problem with the Saiga is that since it's an autoloader, it can't handle special ammo, like less-lethal rounds.

This is looking at it from a holistic standpoint, say for law enforcement use or whatnot, this isn't much of a concern for citizens.

Totally agree with you REOIV.

The Saiga blows any other semi-automatic "combat" shotgun out of the water, with the possible exception of the SPAS-15.
 
I don't have any special feelings for or against the Saiga 12.

Its major deficiencies for me were the limited capacity of the five round magazines with which it is shipped and the lack of a last round bolt hold open. For me the limited capacity issue has been addressed satisfactorily by the AGP 10 round magazines. I know that the LRBHO issue has been addressed by someone with the screen name "Jeric" (I think) but his approach requires modification to both the shotgun itself and all magazines used in it. That approach is not satisfactory to me because it requires modifying the magazines. I've heard of other approaches to the LRBHO issue but I don't know what they are. Can anyone else provide direction towards them?

The Kalashnikov design does not provide a LRBHO. It's a serious limitation for me in the Saiga 12 because the shotgun can't be loaded with a full magazine if the bolt is closed and because it does not allow efficient loading through the ejection port. I've read explanations by people who work around the problem of loading with the bolt closed. Whatever they do is nothing like what I want to do. The more serious issue for me is the inability to toss shells into the ejection port once the magazine is exhausted. There's no workaround for that.

I'm interested to see someone object to excessive perceived recoil in a Saiga 12. My own sense is that the perceived recoil is a bit less than in other shotguns using the same ammunition.

It's fun to shoot and easily maneuvered. The 10 round AGP magazines do change the Saiga 12 balance but, to me, it's a slight improvement. The gun also just doesn't seem to care whether it's cleaned, another distinct advantage.
 
I love threads full of conjecture from a bunch of folks about guns they've never actually used. :)

I'll bet that you could load and fire 100 rounds of shotgun ammo faster from a tubular magazine semi-auto than some other shooter with a Saiga and 3 10-round detachable magazines even if he had all 3 mags fully loaded to begin with. He would get off the first 30 rounds faster than you, but after that, you would go past him like he was in reverse gear.

I can load a regular shotgun just a split second slower than the fastest in the world. I'm a little out of practice, but about two years ago, I was .5 of a second off the top in the country on the old fire a round, load 4, fire a round drill.

I can load twice as many shells into my Saiga in half the time.

If you started me with 3 loaded mags, and I had a race, I would still win. Because it is all about real estate. Speed loading a tube gun requires you to have the rounds stacked on your person in a matter built for speed. So you're wearing shells stacked on your belt, bandoleers, on the gun (side saddles) and even on your forearms. Once that real estate is used up, you're loading out of your pockets or out of a box because the rounds aren't prearranged for you to grab 3 or 4 at at time all pointing in the same direction.

And I've shot a lot of 3gun, and the longest shotgun stage I ever shot was about 55 rounds. Using 3, 8 round magazines, and two fives, I still beat the next closest tube fed by a considerable margin, because even once I'm dry, I can drop the gun onto the tac sling, and reload a magazine as fast as any single loader can load a tube fed.

The Kalashnikov design does not provide a LRBHO. It's a serious limitation for me in the Saiga 12 because the shotgun can't be loaded with a full magazine if the bolt is closed and because it does not allow efficient loading through the ejection port. I've read explanations by people who work around the problem of loading with the bolt closed. Whatever they do is nothing like what I want to do. The more serious issue for me is the inability to toss shells into the ejection port once the magazine is exhausted. There's no workaround for that.
I have a reload methodology that overcomes this. I've got videos floating around on Youtube where I do a Saiga reload in under 2 seconds. I'm right handed. My left hand uses the magazine as a vertical foregrip. To reload, my right hand reaches up, pulls back the charging handle, and I hold the bolt open. I drop the mag with my left, pull another mag off my belt, rock and lock it in with my left, and then my right hand lets go of the bolt to return to the firing position.

For select slug, I wear a dump pouch in on my left side. I drop the mag into the pouch, do the same thing with pulling the bolt to the rear, and use my left to either insert a slug mag, or drop a single slug into the chamber. Let go of the bolt and return to the firing position.

If it is only one or two slugs to be fired, then the tube fed wins. If it is more than that, mag fed wins. Back and forth? Tube fed wins.

My Russian 8 rounds will fit into a 45 round AK mag pouch. Two 5 rounders fit into the old Vietnam era M16 pouches. I use kydex pouches on my belt to hold the big ones, and if it is a high round count match, I wear a vest set up with AK magazine pouches across my chest. At these round counts, if you're single loading shells, you're going to be using up a lot of real estate with bandollers and belt carriers too. No matter what, shotgun shells are big.


That thing looks like it handles like a D8 cat.
I've done a Dozier Drill in 1.85 seconds with one. I don't care what it looks like. I don't look like a super model either. The darn things work, and that's all I care about.

Sorry, but I prefer a nice English stocked double for bird hunting.
So would I, but last time I checked, there are more reasons to own guns than for shooting little animals. As for clays, it wasn't built for clays. Do you often go over to the rifle forum where people are talking about AR15s, sneer, and say, "well that sure would suck for Moose huntin'." :)

Good luck -- the last shipment of S-12's dried up (mostly) around September. The next one is due to hit the states around the end of the month (so rumor control says).
Supposedly there will be another 800 coming into the country in December. Those will be allocated out to the distributors. At this point, none of us know how many we'll be getting.

If I got 50 today, I would have every one sold by tomorrow.
 
The one problem with the Saiga is that since it's an autoloader, it can't handle special ammo, like less-lethal rounds.

I see it handling beanbags like this:

*bang* (work charging handle) *bang* (work charging handle) *bang* (work charging handle)
 
Thanks Correia. I didn't know that what I was saying was conjecture or that I hadn't ever actually used a Saiga 12. :)
 
I love the line "You wouldn't use a woman just for having babies, would you?" They do need to make thanksgiving dressing

Oooooh, you better be glad my wife don't read this forum.:eek:


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Sorry, but I prefer a nice English stocked double for bird hunting.
So would I, but last time I checked, there are more reasons to own guns than for shooting little animals. As for clays, it wasn't built for clays. Do you often go over to the rifle forum where people are talking about AR15s, sneer, and say, "well that sure would suck for Moose huntin'."

You know that and I know that. However, I was answering THIS for the guy that doesn't know that.
As far as uses for an S12, they are versatile. I have mine set up for home defense, with the option to use it for bird hunting (an easy block installed in the 5-rd magazine) or deer hunting. It also makes people very jealous at shotgun and 3-gun competitions!

The one use I have for a shotgun other than safe room defense is birds. If I wanna shoot something not moving or on the ground, I have rifles. One exception is rabbits. Although I can hit a running rabbit with a .22, done it many times, if I'm out for meat, the job is easier with a shotgun.

I'm not a warrior, will leave that up to the younger guys. I don't even PLAY soldier. I'm a hunter, outdoorsman. I reckon the Saiga is plenty fine as a home defense gun, but so is a pump or even a coach gun. You don't need to lay down suppressive fire in your living room.

I think if I lived in one of those states that mandates deer hunting with a shotgun, though, I think I would buy a Saiga for deer hunting. Hey, if you can't use a rifle, at least you can carry a gun that LOOKS like one. :D Be pretty awesome for hogs in tight cover, too, but I have rifles and this isn't Indiana.
 
"10 rounds of 10ga 3.5" magnum slugs in a semi-auto is possibly too much awesome for one human to handle. "

Unless your Chuck Norris!
 
I don't see why it couldn't be used for bird hunting. I use my Stoeger 12 gauge coach gun for all my bird hunting needs and I do just fine. Better than my father's 1100 with a 28" barrel. Is there any reason why someone wouldn't use it for bird hunting, if legal in his or her state, besides it being aestetically off?
 
Everybody already hit the good points so all I have to say is I love mine and would never part with it.
 
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Deer Hunter, the main issue with the Saiga on aerial targets is that the sight picture is a lot different than what we're used to. Your sight rail is elevated pretty high over the barrel because of the gas system. You can do it, but it takes some practice to get the picture right, and even then, it isn't as intuitive as busting clays or birds with a rib and a bead on a regular barrel.


Thanks Correia. I didn't know that what I was saying was conjecture
This is the internet. We try not to let facts or reality stand in the way of a good post. :)
 
For real world use I don't understand what the big deal is with reloading speed for a shotgun. For shooting games like 3 gun competition I'm sure it matters, but I don't see the point for self defense use.

6+1 out of my 870 plus 5 rounds in the side saddle is good enough for dealing with any self defense situation that is remotely plausible. Please spare me any far fetched scenarios that involve half a dozen or more intruders breaking in to steal my Frank Sinatra collection. ;) If I thought that was possible or even likely, I'd have my AR-15 or my BM-59 by the bed instead of a shotgun.

I don't have anything against the Saiga at all, and have even contemplated buying one, but more for a novelty than anything else.
 
This is the internet. We try not to let facts or reality stand in the way of a good post.

Lead and we follow, Mon General.

I'd appreciate a link to one of your Youtube videos ("I've got videos floating around on Youtube where I do a Saiga reload in under 2 seconds") so I can see what a Saiga 12 looks like and how you do with it what you described. Searches for "Saiga 12" or "Correia" retrieve many videos that seem irrelevant.
 
The one that I can find quickly is http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxLoahwIwqU If I recall correctly, it is about half way through.

And the bad thing is that this isn't close to my best. I chicken wing my left elbow way too much. That's what happens when I load off of a vest instead of a belt.
 
I have no doubt you COULD use it for bird hunting. I use my coach gun for bird hunting, too, but it's a quick handing double. That Saiga, while I've never held one, has pistol grips and I know pistol grips guns are quite slow to the shoulder for me, have a couple of rifles so set up just for range play, mainly. I don't know how heavy the thing is, either.

Hey, I ain't totally against any gun...well, perhaps the RG revolver, LOL, but the original question asked for negatives and since I'm not really up on tacticool shotguns, don't care much for 'em, I just figured I'd add some negative since everyone else is taking the other side. Hey, I wouldn't mine owning one, looks like a fun gun to play with, but I wouldn't bird hunt with it. I have much better guns for that. I didn't feel there was a need for praise in this thread, though, since all the Saiga supporters are weighing in. :D Hey, buy one if you WANT it. No one except my wife thinks you need to have a NEED for a firearm to justify buying it.
 
Correia,

And the bad thing is that this isn't close to my best. I chicken wing my left elbow way too much.

Considering that I've asked you as well about this same technique, maybe it's time for a dedicated video of you doing this reload?

:D
 
"I can load a regular shotgun just a split second slower than the fastest in the world. I'm a little out of practice, but about two years ago, I was .5 of a second off the top in the country on the old fire a round, load 4, fire a round drill.

I can load twice as many shells into my Saiga in half the time
. "


Perhaps you can, but I wasn't referring to any world record speed holders. I was talking about the average guy with a shotgun.

True, I've never used a shotgun with detachable magazines, but I've loaded bunches of magazines for rifles and pistols in a wide variety of calibers. Without exception, they are all a pain in the ass to load as well as being very slow. I can think of no reason why loading detachable shotgun magazines would be any different.

With a tubular fed shotgun magazine, I can load shells into the mag tube with one hand while I hold the gun with the other hand. With detachable magazines, I would have to lay the shotgun down and load the magazines with both hands; then pick up the shotgun to insert the mag into the gun and resume firing.

Maybe YOU can load and shoot a shotgun with detachable magazine faster than one with a tubular magazine, but I'm quite certain that the reverse is true for me (and probably the average shooter too).

BTW, to do the 100 round contest, I figured to have the shells in a pouch on my belt or on a nearby table, not on the gun somewhere. So "real estate" is not an issue.
 
Well, you can rig your contest anywhich way you want until you get the results you're looking for then. :)

Because not only are you going to fire 100 rounds, you're going to have a TABLE to set your stuff on, because that is even more realistic.

I bring up 3gun, because that is the only group of shotgun shooters that come anywhere near that kind of round count. Only we do it on the move.

jlbraun, you know. I need to do that. I've been meaning to, but I don't own a video camera, and when I'm out shooting with somebody that has one, I tend to not think of it. (since for the last 2 years, I hardly ever get to shoot unless it is for business).
 
True, I've never used a shotgun with detachable magazines, but I've loaded bunches of magazines for rifles and pistols in a wide variety of calibers. Without exception, they are all a pain in the ass to load as well as being very slow. I can think of no reason why loading detachable shotgun magazines would be any different.

Loading a single stack magazine is easy. Especially one built for 12 ga shells.

It is about as easy to load as slipping shells into a normal shotgun.

With a tubular fed shotgun magazine, I can load shells into the mag tube with one hand while I hold the gun with the other hand. With detachable magazines, I would have to lay the shotgun down and load the magazines with both hands; then pick up the shotgun to insert the mag into the gun and resume firing.

And with the saiga you could either put it on the table or let it fall to your side on a sling. While you hold the mag in one hand and load with the other....

Even then the time to insert a mag and rack it is trivial.

Maybe YOU can load and shoot a shotgun with detachable magazine faster than one with a tubular magazine, but I'm quite certain that the reverse is true for me (and probably the average shooter too).

Try an S12 some time. You'll be surprised how fast it goes. My friends I introduced to shooting found the Saiga 12 actually more intuitive to use than the pump guns etc. Mainly because they are used to seeing a mag be loaded and then put into a gun instead of a fixed magazine.

The only thing that threw them was the safety. That AK safety messes up most people, as they just don't recognize it for what it is at first.

BTW, to do the 100 round contest, I figured to have the shells in a pouch on my belt or on a nearby table, not on the gun somewhere. So "real estate" is not an issue.

Well at that point if you have a table....why not extra loaded mags?
Or a mag speed loader?

If speed of reloading is something that is that important try out a Saiga, they are great for the price, shoot damn near everything and easy to work with and maintain and loading is a snap.
 
You guys seem to be missing (or purposely ignoring) the main point I was trying to make. That point is that as long as you have loaded detachable magazines handy, then, sure, they are faster and easier than loading 4 or 5 shells at a time into a tubular magazine shotgun.

BUT, once the supply of pre-loaded detachable magazines is exhausted, then the loading process is a slow PITA. Whether that is relevant to your combat games or whatever is up to you to decide. For me, the ease and convenience of a fixed tubular magazine is what I want in a repeating shotgun.
 
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