Saiga 12s - Approaching extinction?

Discussion in 'Shotguns' started by WoodyTX, Mar 7, 2011.

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  1. WoodyTX

    WoodyTX Member

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    The recent BATFE study on shotguns got me off my arse and interested in a Saiga 12 shotgun. The prices on them seem to be climbing, but I haven't been looking long enough to get a good picture. Most online dealers are out of stock.

    Could someone with a better perspective or more information on the subject enlighten me, please? Should I bite the bullet and buy a $700 shotgun that will 'need' upgrades, or should I let all this blow over?

    Thanks!
     
  2. PTK

    PTK Member

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    Basically, the BATFE said nothing about Saigas. Relax on that.

    The factory making them has had QC issues and has ceased making them for now, while US stocks are leaving warehouses and distributors due to the BATFE scare.

    The prices are going up because people are convinced they'll either be banned or never be made again.

    $700 is about $400 too much to pay for a S12. Period.
     
  3. Girodin

    Girodin Member

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    People are in panic mode. The things is they do not even know what they are panicing about. The study is just that. If the ATF promulgated rules that were exactly whats in the study the result might well be that saigas could be imported in a less neutered form. The study states expressly that pistol grips are not a non sporting feature.

    The argument the S12 could be axed is that there are after market mags with a capacity higher than 5 rounds and drums available. It stands to reason that this would at worst require modifications to new S12s so they could only accept different mags, as imported at least. Similar to the rifles.

    Whether I would pay $700 for one would depend on how much money I had, how unwilling I was to risk even a remote chance I couldn't get one later, and how it would make me feel if in a short time they could be had for $450 again. I remember the last time they were selling for $800.

    The risk of never getting one might be mitigated by the prospects of getting one of the AR patterned guns that ATI announced they would be importing.

    http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2010/02/12/atis-new-12-gauge-ar-15-patterned-shotgun/
     
  4. Roan

    Roan Member

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    The reason for the supply issue is that the importers are being changed around and the most recent shipment is still sitting in customs (it can take months for the ATF to release them). Thus, there are Saiga 12s on their way in the forseeable future, they haven't been banned, and there's no solid indication they will be banned. I would wait at little bit. I don't see them going below $500 in average price again. The era of $300 Saiga 12s is long gone and waiting for that day is foolish.
     
  5. nalioth

    nalioth Member

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    Yes, let's leave the rumors outside.

    The ATF ruling at the SHOT show concerned the 28ga Taurus Judge revolver.

    Saigas are still importable, but as noted, they're following their usual yearly cycle of "import > supplies dwindle > prices rise > rumors of their banning begin > import"
     
  6. WoodyTX

    WoodyTX Member

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    Thanks, everyone! One voice was saying that I should pick one up, if only for investment purposes. Another was saying to chill out; you don't have one now, and don't exactly need one anytime soon.

    Stupid voices....
     
  7. ms6852

    ms6852 Member

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    Too many people are jumping the gun like they did with the AR type rifles driving price to way over $1200 for a $800 dollar AR. Now that the scare is over they are stuck with all these rifles they are unloading at a huge loss in $$$.
     
  8. Sam1911

    Sam1911 Moderator Emeritus

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    This appears to be an unfounded rumor.

    Back at the end of January The NRA's American Rifleman published this statement: ”Rumors also abound regarding an impending ATF ruling regarding shotguns and "sporting purposes," but they have nothing to do with the 28-gauge Raging Judge.

    Part of this article: http://www.americanrifleman.org/blogs/quashing-raging-judge-rumors/
     
  9. nalioth

    nalioth Member

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  10. Ohio Gun Guy

    Ohio Gun Guy Member

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    Amazing how "rules" changes are effectively banning something... I thought we had representatives, not rule makers.

    I think many of our rule making alphabet soup groups need a hair cut.
     
  11. SuperNaut

    SuperNaut Member

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    Keep panic buying folks, I'm diggin' the deals I get a year or so later.
     
  12. Sam1911

    Sam1911 Moderator Emeritus

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    So it cannot be imported? Is that official? I've seen nothing to say that's so. How did they bring their examples into the country without asking the ATF's permission first?

    Yes. That's a study on shotguns.

    The legal definition of a shotgun includes the phrase, "designed or redesigned to be fired from the shoulder," so whatever a Taurus Judge (or Raging Judge) is, it is not a shotgun. So I guess that study is about other things.
     
  13. Xinowulf

    Xinowulf Member

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    Yeah I read the study. If you haven't, take the time to read it. Basically you can't have a "military/law enforcement" shotgun. No foregrip, collapsible/folding stock, extened magazine, and etc. I don't think we have seen the last of the saiga shotguns. Maybe ones with a folding stock, drum magazine, quad rail, and pistol foregrip. Thanks for all the info guys, it put my mind at rest.
     
  14. nalioth

    nalioth Member

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    We'll be seeing plenty of those.

    This is an "importation" study. Factory Saigas are boringly plain, and have no evil features whatsoever.

    After they're imported, you can have your way with them, so long as you keep 922r in mind.
     
  15. Xinowulf

    Xinowulf Member

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    I'm not sure about the 922r. Is it about having the 10 American made parts in your weapon? I really just want a saiga 12 with a pistol-grip.
     
  16. nalioth

    nalioth Member

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    Threads explaining 922r are stickied here and on most any other forum that deals with firearms. There is no excuse to be ignorant of it, as it's a fact of modern life for gunnies.

    922r explained - Google
     
  17. Dimis

    Dimis Member

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    maybe were missing something... like taurusUSA perhaps?

    seeing as how the judge .410 and probably the new judge 28 as well are produced in the USA by taurusUSA the importing factor is a moot point

    now a short barreled shotgun may be an issue but thats a whole other ball of wax

    as for the saiga 12 its a cool shotgun and alot of fun but paying whats asked now is rediculous

    if they run out they run out its not the end of the world they still make remington 870s and mossberg 500s by the truck load and those have served us for a long time
     
  18. Girodin

    Girodin Member

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    I guess you haven't been paying attention since the the New Deal. You can thank FDR for killing the non delegation doctrine (a constitutional provision which read fairly makes it clear congress not agencies, or anyone else are suppose to create the law).

    Neither have I.
     
  19. roadchoad

    roadchoad Member

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    This is incorrect. The study is not law, nor does it apply to anything except imports, same as 922r. If I were you, I'd edit my post to prevent further spreading misinformation. Who knows who will find this page through a search engine and use it to their detriment.

    The reason a .410 Judge is allowed, but there is a question about the Raging Judge, is the issue of bore diameter. Anything over .50 can be considered a DD in a non-shotgun, and shotguns must be shoulder-fired arms.

    Destructive device(...)
    I have not seen any definitive answer on the Raging Judge at this point, but this link seems credible: http://www.americanrifleman.org/blogs/quashing-raging-judge-rumors/
     
  20. Sam1911

    Sam1911 Moderator Emeritus

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    What's not said in that article is that the large-bore Destructive Device issue can be -- and may have been -- eliminated by Taurus seeking an ATF ruling that the device is suitable for "sporting purposes." The .600 NE and JD Jones' 14.7mm JDJ round are not shotguns or shotgun shells, but have been exempted from DD status by such a ruling.

    Unfortunately, no one has clearly said yet whether Taurus did, indeed, receive (or even ask for) such an exemption but my money is on "yes" as to not do so would open them to potential trouble for even bringing such a thing into the country to display at SHOT.

    Seems odd, as the article in AR points out, that Taurus would have sunk what we'd have to assume would be hundreds of thousands or a million bucks into developing a product that can have no market outside of the American civilian gun-buying population -- but would not have thought to ask the ATF Tech Branch for their thoughts on the matter before making that investment.
     
  21. lobo9er

    lobo9er Member

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    I still question how these are gonna hold up 10 years, 20 years from now anyhow .I dont think they are gonna have the life span that a 870,500,'97 or m12 enjoy. I had a '97 from 1913 that i traded away. Does anyone think in 2100 their grandkids are gonna be holding and using their stamped reciever saiga 12?
     
  22. Sam1911

    Sam1911 Moderator Emeritus

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    Considering how many rounds of 40,000 CUP 7.62x39 rounds an AK can be expected to digest before it stops working (if anyone's yet figured out how many hundreds of thousands that is) ... not just grandkids, but their grandkids too, maybe! :)
     
  23. lobo9er

    lobo9er Member

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    I doubt that a saiga 12 is gonna be as functional as a m12 after 50+ years of hunting and target shooting, maybe time will tell
     
  24. brgr

    brgr Member

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    The cheapest I saw them for was $499 about 6 months ago. Thought about getting one but didn't.

    I have also been wondering if they will get more shipments, or if they just aren't going to get them anymore. The one thing that gives me HOPE that they will get more is that I have a Saiga-223, and not more than just a few weeks ago you couldn't find a .223 anywere. Well, one that wasn't inflated that is. I paid $324 for mine and was seeing them for over $500(the ones you could find). Now you can find them just about everywere, and for around $349. Thats more than I paid but still a very marginal raise in price(inflation).

    So I would say that if(when) they get more shippments of the Saiga-12 they should go for around $525 to $550.
     
  25. 1stmarine

    1stmarine Member

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    If you find them at good price stock up. I have 7. If you cannot use them all they make a great present.
     
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