Saiga 12s - Approaching extinction?

[Davek1977]

http://classicarms.us/ has Saiga 12's in stock currently for anyone who may care...

 

[Justin]

That is correct, so far. The larger question is -- since they surely must have realized that long before they put all the effort into this 'study' -- are they angling for something more sweeping with this, (like Zoogster suggested in Post 58) like a declaration that these guns are importable and "sporting" but any that are converted to the traditional AK pattern must be registered as Title II Destructive Devices.

If they're angling for something, it's a doozy. The BATFE study deliberately states that they found very little functional difference between a modified Saiga shotgun and a more traditional semi-auto shotgun like a Benelli M2.

They actually went out of their way to point out that you can get speed loaders for a traditional type shotgun that makes it just as fast to reload as a shotgun fed from a box magazine.

If they're angling for import restrictions on semi-auto shotguns, they're looking to go after all of them, not just the scary looking ones.

 

[Sam1911]

That would seem a mighty bold step, even for them. And more pointless than usual.

Still, I wonder why they bothered with this study that didn't really establish anything at all. Just an academic exercise? Or is it laying the groundwork for ... something.

 

[Para Cassatt]

I recently just recieved a response from EPS in which I was hoping to get a copy of the old worksheet that was said to once be around. I heard this on the S12 forum and they did have a list of parts considered to be S12 specific parts there. The email I recieved states the sear and trunnion are now included in addition to the parts listed at S12Forum. However they stated that as equiped from factory with factory buttstock that they do not contain barrel ext and muzzle attachments. Could this be just another interpretation by ATF or a new policy?

 

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

8. excessive weight (greater than 10 pounds for 12 gauge or smaller);

Shotguns are supposed to be light weight so the BATF is saving us from a less practical shotgun.

 

[Para Cassatt]

527, As shipped they are within an ounce or two of several 870's if the weights given in my catalog are correct. Increased capacity will raise the weight of any of them. I admit that there are several 6lb-7lb shotguns available, but for high volume plinking, deer hunting and pest control I prefer a little more heft.

 

[ChileRelleno]

As already stated...

All the hype on the S12, and a few imports was due to the ATF's recent Importability Study, http://www.atf.gov/publications/firearms/0...in-shotguns.pdf

Which was very clearly aimed at the S12.
With pics of the S12 & MD20 drum mag.

No... A ban on the S12 is NOT near... But the Alphabet Gang are being their usual selves about approving new importations.
What? Why? How? Well, any little thing they can pick at.

The following was their list of Evil features... The one that has turned out to be relevant is bolded below.

Non-sporting features:

"Following this review, the working
group determined that certain shotgun features are not particularly suitable or readily adaptable
for sporting purposes. These features include:
(1) Folding, telescoping, or collapsible stocks;
(2) bayonet lugs;
(3) flash suppressors;
(4) magazines over 5 rounds, or a drum magazine;
(5) grenade-launcher mounts;
(6) integrated rail systems (other than on top of the receiver or barrel);
(7) light enhancing devices;
(8) excessive weight (greater than 10 pounds for 12 gauge or smaller);
(9) excessive bulk (greater than 3 inches in width and/or greater than 4 inches in depth);
(10) forward pistol grips or other protruding parts designed or used for gripping the
shotgun with the shooter’s extended hand."

Current factory S-12's _may_ have #6 if you count scope rail as such.

Given the feedback on #6, it may be a stretch but I'm still reading it literally where it states "other than on top of the receiver" whereas S-12 scope rail is on the side of the receiver. Also the document specifically illustrates an example of a drum magazine being MD Arms items for S-12, it may be just to show that you can't import S-12 with a magazine over 5 rounds but it's rather strange to point this out unless they are being pro-active to head any potential magazine importation.

Excerpts:
"(6) Integrated Rail Systems.42
This refers to a mounting rail system for small arms upon which firearm accessories and features
may be attached. This includes scopes, sights, and other features, but may also include
accessories or features with no sporting purpose, including flashlights, foregrips, and bipods.
Rails on the sides and underside of shotguns—including any accessory mount—facilitate
installation of certain features lacking any sporting purpose. However, receiver rails that are
installed on the top of the receiver and barrel are readily adaptable to sporting purposes because
this facilitates installation of optical or other sights."

Note that "Rails on the sides and underside of shotguns—including any accessory mount—facilitate
installation of certain features lacking any sporting purpose...However, receiver rails that are
installed on the top of the receiver and barrel are readily adaptable to sporting purposes"

Over at Saiga12.com we've one Importer that very recently had a FORM 6 returned as DISAPPROVED for the above reason, i.e. side rail scope mount = integrated rail system.
He had submitted it with the S12 configured as it always has been with the scope mount.
He resubmitted the FORM 6 with the S12 configured without the scope mount, and was APPROVED.

Here is the list of IMPORT RESTRICTIONS currently in place on the Saigas.
This was stamped on the back of his approved FORM 6.



Do take note that a regular pistol grip is NOT on the list of restrictions.
Pistol gripped shotguns, designed to be fired from the shoulder were found to be of sporting use.
We can well expect to possibly see future Saigas with a pistol grip.


And since I love my S12, here she is...

 

[6x6pinz]

All the hype about the ban and people thinking it was just about the Saiga is kind of funny. You don't think it is possible that the MKA1919 was being put in for application and that possibly a review was done as a result of the military rifle patterned shotguns that could possibly follow was of a concern to our A-boys. Can't say that I see the difference in a combat style shotgun and any other semi cut down in a garage but apparently some think the combat style is more unlawful. Silly just silly.

 

[ChileRelleno]

No where does it say anything about 'Sporting' nor 'Military' configuration firearms in the 2A.
This bull about 'Sporting' is just that, bull.

If anything it is implied that our firearms are to be military in nature.

Elect me President, and the first Economic/Budget Reforms I'd implement to save money would be the abolishment of the, ATF, IRS and both the Depts of Energy & Education.

The first two are IMHO unconstitutional institutions and the latter are just utter failures, all are multi billion dollar boondoggles.