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Saiga, ban state, HI Capacity magaizines, etc

Discussion in 'Legal' started by The Deer Hunter, Nov 17, 2008.

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  1. The Deer Hunter

    The Deer Hunter Member

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    Ok so I saw this post in a saiga .223 range report thread. Now I am trying to figure out what type of AK to get. I liked the Saiga, but according to the salesman at the gun shop I cannot legally put a high capacity magazine in a low capacity gun.

    I live in Massachusetts, where the assault weapons ban held over. I am also considering converting it to a regular pistol grip stock.

    If I get the required parts to make the firearm 922r compliant, can I legally use magazines larger than the stock 10 round magazine?
     
  2. The Deer Hunter

    The Deer Hunter Member

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    Ok well I should have read better. Since this thread is open tell me what the main differences between a Saiga and most AKs? I'm aware of the grip configuration and that stuff.

    Anything I should make note of?
     
  3. Hoppy590

    Hoppy590 Member

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    922 has to be satisfied to use hicaps regardless of MA's ridiculous laws.

    in MA, you can convert a Saiga to AK format so long as you do not have the evil features listed in MGL 140 -121 ( which will just tell you to see the Fed 94 AWB).

    at wich point you may use any standard preban AK mag.

    or you may satisfy 922, and leave it in original hunting stock and use any preban AK mag
     
  4. Hoppy590

    Hoppy590 Member

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    for example, this is a Converted Saiga that would be legal in MA when used with Preban mags
    http://www.atlanticfirearms.com/beta/storeproduct433.aspx

    since its a capable of accepting a detachable mag and only has 1 of the evil features


    * Folding or telescoping stock,
    * Pistol grip which protrudes conspicuously below the action of the gun,
    * Bayonet mount,
    * Flash suppressor or a threaded barrel designed to accommodate a flash suppressor,
    * sh suppressor, Grenade launcher.
     
  5. Highland Ranger

    Highland Ranger Member

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    More here: http://forum.saiga-12.com/

    As I understand it, the Saiga is an AK, made by the original AK factory that has been modified so that it can be imported as a "sporter" rifle.

    In order to use "hi capacity" mags in the shotgun (I believe defined as more than 5) or the rifles (10 or 8 for the 308) you need to convert the gun to being classified as US made which gets you around the federal 922r law.

    The applicable parts count for a .223 rifle is 14 and you need to get it under 10. The mag counts as three so buy a "hi capacity" US MADE mag and then change the furniture to US made (front and buttstock) and you now have a US made gun with only 9 foreign parts so 922r doesn't apply.

    I don't know anything about Mass laws, so you need to do some research there - for me in NJ we aren't allowed over 15 in anything so doing a conversion (swapping out the guts of the gun, some minor machining) gets me 5 more rounds that I can get just by changing the furniture and mag to US made.

    I don't have any investment in AK mags or other gear so doesn't make sense for me.


    Other differences:
    - uses its own mags, can't use AK mags unless you convert; this seems to be a big reason for conversion in the free states
    - has a different gas piston so front furniture is not interchangeable with AK's
    - does not come with a pistol grip, one manufacturer makes a butt stock with an integrated pistol grip. If you want an AK style pistol grip you need to do a conversion

    Lots more to read an a number of vendor sites with Saiga specific parts . . . it was originally considered a great value, accurate, AK reliability and not expensive. With the run on EBR's right now, not sure where it falls out, in fact might be tough to get one.

    Enjoy . . . .
     
  6. Hoppy590

    Hoppy590 Member

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    in order for a hicap mag to be MA legal it must be preban ( made before 94) i think you may have a hard time finding any preban US Made mags. though one option is to take preban mags and replace floorplates and followers with US made parts for a count of 2 US parts toward 922. or if you do a full conversion, a stock and pg ( both cheap options worth a total of 2 US parts) along with the required trigger group ( Tapco G2 for 3 US parts) and with followers and floor plates you will be under 10parts


    for anyone interested, heres the MA GL definition of "Assault Weapon"
    http://www.mass.gov/legis/laws/mgl/140-121.htm
    im full of all kinds of info today!
     
  7. Highland Ranger

    Highland Ranger Member

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    So then he'd have to do a trigger conversion or replace the gas piston to get around it, and then buy an old AK mag.

    Sounds like it's not worth the trouble.

    So you guys can only buy 10 rounds period in anything?
     
  8. Hoppy590

    Hoppy590 Member

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    new? yes 10 rounds.
    preban. anything you want assuming you have a Hicap license
     
  9. The Deer Hunter

    The Deer Hunter Member

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    Its honestly very stupid. The gun itself is considered a high capacity firearm because it comes standard with a 10 round magazine (10 or more rounds = high capacity), but you cannot use a 30 round magazine.


    So If I get the rifle, convert it to a pistol grip version, installed a new trigger group, and a floor plate and follower in a pre ban hi capacity magazine with all US parts, it would satisfy the 922r complience? I guess that means you can only have 10 or less foreign made parts in your gun. How many parts does this thing have??

    I am leaning to the Saiga right now because it is going for $450 as apposed to the already "evil" Yugoslavian AK for $680.
     
  10. Hoppy590

    Hoppy590 Member

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    ok an unconverted Saiga has 14 parts. you must remove 4 or exchange 4 for US made parts.

    (1) Receiver
    (2) Barrels

    (3) Barrel extensions
    (4) Mounting blocks, trunnion

    (5) Muzzle attachments
    (6) Bolts
    (7) Bolt carriers

    (8) Operating rods

    (9) Gas pistons

    (10) Trigger housings

    (11) Triggers
    (12) Hammers

    (13) Sears

    (14) Disconnectors
    (15) Buttstock

    (16) Pistol grips

    (17) Forearms, handguards
    (18) Magazine bodies
    (19) Followers
    (20) Floorplates



    you must remove or replace 4 of these to make a stock Saiga 922 compliant

    stock Saiga + US made Hammer, US made Piston, and MA legal preban surplus magazines with US made followers and floor plate installed.

    you would be 922 compliant and MA compliant
     
  11. Hoppy590

    Hoppy590 Member

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    ok that was "leave the saiga stock" post. this is the convert the saiga post.

    if you convert it, the saiga will have 15 of the parts ( Pistol grip is added)

    ok now its MUCH easier to do. you need to replace 5 parts



    3 US made parts= Stock, Pistol grip and handguard
    +3 US made parts= Fire Control group ( hammer, disconnect, trigger)
    --------------------------
    6 US made parts

    15-6= 9

    Compliant.

    so unless my maths wrong its all set then too
     
  12. Hoppy590

    Hoppy590 Member

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    that is not MA law, that is fed law.
     
  13. indoorsoccerfrea

    indoorsoccerfrea Member

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    question: not to hijack the thread, but if i make my own furniture (handguard and stock) does that count as us made
     
  14. The Deer Hunter

    The Deer Hunter Member

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    I cant imagine why it wouldn't be.
     
  15. Hoppy590

    Hoppy590 Member

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    so long as your in the US, yes.
     
  16. indoorsoccerfrea

    indoorsoccerfrea Member

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    and that would put me in compliance with 922? hypothetically speaking of course, if i were to get a 50 rd clip from preban times would that still be in compliance?
     
  17. Hoppy590

    Hoppy590 Member

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    on a stock Saiga?

    14
    - 2 (stock & handguard)
    -------
    12 Foreign parts.

    NOT 922 compliant.

    you could make your own stock and handguards, but you still need 2 more US made parts. a US made magazine will work. the combination of stock, hand guard and US made magazine would make you 922 compliant

    pay no attention to the preban part. thats MA specific.

    http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=18530
     
  18. Prince Yamato

    Prince Yamato Member

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    Once you get the Class A license, MA law is just like federal law under the old AWB. So, you can convert the Saiga to a "post ban" configuration.

    Your options for pre-ban mags are unmarked Galil mags or orange AK-74 mags converted to take .223 by means of a new follower (alla the WASR-3). That's what was legal under the AWB. I believe only the Galil mags will fit in the .223 saiga though.
     
  19. The Deer Hunter

    The Deer Hunter Member

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    The Saiga I'm looking at is in 7.62x39.
     
  20. SSN Vet

    SSN Vet Member

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    Whenever I have a specific question about the firearms laws in my state, I call the state police.

    They willl usually transfer my call to someone who really knows what the heck they're talking about (which I appreciate) and I've always received a straight, unambiguous answer.
     
  21. Prince Yamato

    Prince Yamato Member

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    Oh, well, that's an easy one. It has no bayonet lug or threaded barrel anyway, so just make sure it has a fixed stock. All metal AK mags are basically pre-ban. All Chinese drums are pre-ban. There you go.
     
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