Saiga SHTF Rifle.. 5.56x45, 7.62x39?
- Thread starter Conall
- Start date
- Status
That chart may be true for FMJ but once you start talking expanding/fragmenting bullets the 7.62x39 edges out the .223 in terminal performance.
Yep, its true 7.62x39 is quite different once you get away from FMJ.
Here is a comparison of 7.62x39 FMJ , then Wolf HP, Military Classic HP, and finally Double Tap versus water juggs.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGB5YB9f15Q
That is AKSarBen proving how inaccurate a saiga .223 is with handloads.QUOTE:Well, he did miss the target by 3".
I guess he might as well give up trying to prove how no one can hardly do better than 3-6 MOA no matter the ammo quality. He might as well concede that Wolf Ammo is as good as it gets, NOT.
Since we want to go into caliber wars....
.308. Military and law enforcment use it, and it is one of the most popular hunting rounds of all time.
The gas station by my house sells it, and if it doesn't take care of the problem in the front yard, I need a RPG.
.308. Military and law enforcment use it, and it is one of the most popular hunting rounds of all time.
The gas station by my house sells it, and if it doesn't take care of the problem in the front yard, I need a RPG.
@ my762buzz
Sure, a good hollow point x39 might be more lethal than 5.56, but I think you'll agree a well fragmenting M193 is still lethal enough.
I'm still feeling that the smaller round might be the better choice, especially considering the other advantages 5.56 has over x39.
Lighter, less recoil, possibly more accurate, greater ammunition availability..
@ nathan
I've seen videos of 5.45 AKs in action, and am amazed at how little muzzle climb there is..
Still, unless you're using ammunition with the air pocket or are one hell of a shot, I figure you'd have to put far too many rounds into a target to take it down with 5.45.
There seems to be plenty of milsurp 5.45 around right now which has the air pocket, but it being corrosive worries me.
I've never fired any corrosive ammo, and have no idea just how bad the effects would be without cleaning over a long period.
@ iyaoyas98
.308.. no thanks.
x39 is about the highest I'd go for a .30 caliber autoloader.
Sure, a good hollow point x39 might be more lethal than 5.56, but I think you'll agree a well fragmenting M193 is still lethal enough.
I'm still feeling that the smaller round might be the better choice, especially considering the other advantages 5.56 has over x39.
Lighter, less recoil, possibly more accurate, greater ammunition availability..
@ nathan
I've seen videos of 5.45 AKs in action, and am amazed at how little muzzle climb there is..
Still, unless you're using ammunition with the air pocket or are one hell of a shot, I figure you'd have to put far too many rounds into a target to take it down with 5.45.
There seems to be plenty of milsurp 5.45 around right now which has the air pocket, but it being corrosive worries me.
I've never fired any corrosive ammo, and have no idea just how bad the effects would be without cleaning over a long period.
@ iyaoyas98
.308.. no thanks.
x39 is about the highest I'd go for a .30 caliber autoloader.
Yes, M193 is lethal no doubt. The fragmenting nature ends when the velocity drops between 2700-2500 fps.
PAPACHUCK
Member
I bought a Saiga in 308 and converted it using Dinzag internals and K-Var furniture. It was a fun experience. Not hard at all for most people to do, and it teaches you how your rifle is built. And you end up with a real, brand new, Russian-built, AK.
For the OP's stated usage, the caliber choice is open. All will work.
I could probably be talked into 5.45x39 since the ammo is soooo cheap right now.
My 21" Saiga 308;
Git-U-1 and have some fun!
For the OP's stated usage, the caliber choice is open. All will work.
I could probably be talked into 5.45x39 since the ammo is soooo cheap right now.
My 21" Saiga 308;
Git-U-1 and have some fun!
@ my762buzz
I'm aware of that, which is why I said
I've been doing a lot of thinking..
5.56 may be plentiful.. but I reckon most of what you'd find in a worst case scenario would be normal .223 as opposed to M193 or M855, unless you sought out the corpses of police/military personnel, assuming there are any and they have 5.56 on them.
So, there goes the advantage of 5.56.. at least in my mind.
Sure, I could stock up on thousands of rounds of M193, but really.. who could carry that much with them?
And as I've already said, I won't be buying a .308 for SHTF.
Ammo is much more expensive(At least for anything worth a damn), heavier, has more recoil..
Try to imagine getting into a firefight while using a .308, and not being able to use your hearing protection.
Now, I know x39 and 5.56 are both very loud themselves, but there is no denying .308 is louder.
I imagine most people wouldn't keep standing after being shot by either x39 or .308.
I couldn't take full advantage of the extra range with that round, anyway.
I want to keep the rifle as compact as possible, so I won't be using a scope.
I'm aware of that, which is why I said
I've been doing a lot of thinking..
5.56 may be plentiful.. but I reckon most of what you'd find in a worst case scenario would be normal .223 as opposed to M193 or M855, unless you sought out the corpses of police/military personnel, assuming there are any and they have 5.56 on them.
So, there goes the advantage of 5.56.. at least in my mind.
Sure, I could stock up on thousands of rounds of M193, but really.. who could carry that much with them?
And as I've already said, I won't be buying a .308 for SHTF.
Ammo is much more expensive(At least for anything worth a damn), heavier, has more recoil..
Try to imagine getting into a firefight while using a .308, and not being able to use your hearing protection.
Now, I know x39 and 5.56 are both very loud themselves, but there is no denying .308 is louder.
I imagine most people wouldn't keep standing after being shot by either x39 or .308.
I couldn't take full advantage of the extra range with that round, anyway.
I want to keep the rifle as compact as possible, so I won't be using a scope.
While I've recommended everything but the x39, it's my go to. I have 3 AK's chambered in it and more ammo then both of us would want to carry. I've never shot anything with a x39, but the ballistics are similar to a 30-30, and I've never had to track a deer or shoot it twice.
lobo9er
Member
.223 Aren't inaccurrate but with the AK platform you cannot take advantage the accurracy potential. so why spend more money on the 5.56 ammo when your shot groups are going to be much like 7.62x39? Unless you already have rifles chambered for 5.56 I don't see the point. Just my .02 and its worth what you paid 0.00. If your starting fresh and its only shtf go cheap. 5.45 is mucho cheap right now.
darkknight
Member
- Joined
- Dec 6, 2006
- Messages
- 224
Here's what I think your overlooking. U can use 5.45,5.56,308, or 7.62x39 and they will all do the job if you do your. A shot that misses the cns on someone is not gonna drop them. Even if there hit with 50 bmg or 12 guage slug and u miss the cns they won't just keel over sorry that's a tv misconception. So get a gun you feel comfortable with and can shoot well with. And the only way to become profecient with any gun is to fire rounds downrange with some frequency.
I'll admit it I would be more scared of farmer john who has shot nothing but 30-30 his whole life and killed deer year after year. Then I would be of a thug or mall ninja who just grabbed an ak/ar and started shooting.firearms are all about profeciancy. So that is a selling point for 5.45. U can practice cheaply and fire more rounds downrange then any of the other calibers.
Yes its corrosive if its ur shtf gun your firearm is going to get cleaned when u have the opportunity to. How many world war 2 guns are still used today by people. A lot. And guess what they used corrosive ammo and there just fine. Your gun will be treated in such a manner that its never been before. It will be exposed to the elements day in and out. Life won't just be running gun battle after running gun battle and if it is. Guess what you won't be around for long. Because how many gun battles will it take before your luck runs out. Your better off avoiding all conflicts. Because that will keep u alive much much longer. Fight when u have too.
So don't buy into the magazine hype on diffrent calibers. They all work just fine. Your little 22 will do the job if you do yours. Yes some have perks others don't. A 308 will punch through more and carry on farther. 223 will be the most accurate depending on platform. X39 will have more punch than 556. 545 will be the cheapest for the time being. Its all tradeoffs pick the one you want and stop worrying about the rest and then go and become proficent.
My choice at this point is 223, x39 cause that's what I have. I'll equip friends and family who don't have any with my weapons. But I'm also going to get a 308 and 545. Why cause I want to.and if the day comes and I need to choose ill pick that day, any of them will do there job with proper shot placement.
So pick the saiga you want and go have fun with it and become profecient.
I'll admit it I would be more scared of farmer john who has shot nothing but 30-30 his whole life and killed deer year after year. Then I would be of a thug or mall ninja who just grabbed an ak/ar and started shooting.firearms are all about profeciancy. So that is a selling point for 5.45. U can practice cheaply and fire more rounds downrange then any of the other calibers.
Yes its corrosive if its ur shtf gun your firearm is going to get cleaned when u have the opportunity to. How many world war 2 guns are still used today by people. A lot. And guess what they used corrosive ammo and there just fine. Your gun will be treated in such a manner that its never been before. It will be exposed to the elements day in and out. Life won't just be running gun battle after running gun battle and if it is. Guess what you won't be around for long. Because how many gun battles will it take before your luck runs out. Your better off avoiding all conflicts. Because that will keep u alive much much longer. Fight when u have too.
So don't buy into the magazine hype on diffrent calibers. They all work just fine. Your little 22 will do the job if you do yours. Yes some have perks others don't. A 308 will punch through more and carry on farther. 223 will be the most accurate depending on platform. X39 will have more punch than 556. 545 will be the cheapest for the time being. Its all tradeoffs pick the one you want and stop worrying about the rest and then go and become proficent.
My choice at this point is 223, x39 cause that's what I have. I'll equip friends and family who don't have any with my weapons. But I'm also going to get a 308 and 545. Why cause I want to.and if the day comes and I need to choose ill pick that day, any of them will do there job with proper shot placement.
So pick the saiga you want and go have fun with it and become profecient.
I'd choose a caliber that as many of my friends have as possible. If one gun is good, three friends with guns in the same caliber as yours is even better. I know I can rely on at least three other people in a SHTF situation to hole up and be secured, and all pack 7.62x39 with many many many rounds of ammo stored for a rainy day. Bugging out is good, bugging in is also an option. But, whether you bug out or bug in, bring a friend, bring two friends, bring as many friends as possible, in fact.
@ darkknight
I've already thought about everything you mentioned.
@ -v-
Thought of that, too.
Actually, I intend on buying another rifle in the same caliber later on for a good friend of mine.
I've finally come to a decision.
I already have several years of experience with 7.62x39 AKs, so I will be buying a Saiga in that caliber.
Ammunition may not be as common as 5.56, but I'll be able to carry enough to get by.
If I ever ran low, chances are I would've picked up another weapon or two by that time.
Now that's settled, I just need to know exactly what parts I need to do the conversion.
I've looked around and different websites say different things.
So, what's the truth? What will I need?
Edit: Nevermind. I know what to do now.
I've already thought about everything you mentioned.
@ -v-
Thought of that, too.
Actually, I intend on buying another rifle in the same caliber later on for a good friend of mine.
I've finally come to a decision.
I already have several years of experience with 7.62x39 AKs, so I will be buying a Saiga in that caliber.
Ammunition may not be as common as 5.56, but I'll be able to carry enough to get by.
If I ever ran low, chances are I would've picked up another weapon or two by that time.
Now that's settled, I just need to know exactly what parts I need to do the conversion.
I've looked around and different websites say different things.
So, what's the truth? What will I need?
Edit: Nevermind. I know what to do now.
Last edited:
If I was searching for a good deal on a Saiga I'd probably start at -
http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showforum=42?
http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showforum=42?
Here is a good source for a good deal on a saiga:
http://www.centerfiresystems.com/SAI-762.aspx
http://www.centerfiresystems.com/SAI-762.aspx
Ughh
Member
Really? 5.45x39 is that cheap?? It seems cheaper than 7.62x39 from what your saying.
Also, what does is SHTF stand for?
Last edited:
Ughh
Member
5.56 is great, only if you achieve that same velocity in the wound profile will you get the same results. It's the velocity that that makes that little .223 tumble and create such a permanent cavity.
In terms of effectiveness, i think the 7.62 will put u on your ass with its kinetic energy and higher grain, as the 5.56 will more likely incapacitate you faster as you bleed out faster. And if value and availability is negligible--not that 7.62 is not available, i think it's everywhere--I'd go 5.56.
Better trajectory/accuracy, lower recoil for easier follow up shots.
In terms of effectiveness, i think the 7.62 will put u on your ass with its kinetic energy and higher grain, as the 5.56 will more likely incapacitate you faster as you bleed out faster. And if value and availability is negligible--not that 7.62 is not available, i think it's everywhere--I'd go 5.56.
Better trajectory/accuracy, lower recoil for easier follow up shots.
Last edited:
malix
Member
Silly Hypothetical Tacticool Fantasy?
Actually its for s**t hitting the fan. A total breakdown in law and order, which for whatever reason is a major preoccupation with some folks.
lobo9er
Member
word
What do you need? You don't need anything. You don't need the conversion at all to have a very functional, and highly effective rifle. In sporting config, the Saiga is just as effective as it is in standard AK config.
It's only esthetics.
FMJMIKE
Member
Part of the reason for the Legendary AK reliability is the rifle cartridge case. The 5.45 X 39 and 7.62 X 39 rifle cases are tapered. This allows for easier extraction of a round as compared to a non-tapered cartridge case. Less friction on a tapered case. So....a .223/5.56 may not be as reliable as its Russian cousins........
Hammerhead6814
Member
- Joined
- Apr 6, 2009
- Messages
- 701
Anyone who says .223 Saiga's are inaccurate need to google search "AKSarben". He'll prove you wrong.
- Status
