San Francisco DA sues 3 California-based 'ghost gun' makers

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by Aim1, Aug 19, 2021.

  1. AlexanderA
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    AlexanderA Member

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    "80%" is a meaningless figure, that somebody cooked up for marketing purposes. ATF has ruled that when certain machining operations are left undone, an incomplete lower receiver is not a "gun." The issue of whether those undone machining operations amount to 20% of the total machining time, was not addressed by the ATF.

    Originally, as I understand it, the ATF ruled that if any one of three specific areas of the lower was not machined, the lower would be a "non-gun." These three areas were (a) the magazine well, (b) the socket for the buffer tube, or (c) the firing control group pocket. Today, all the incomplete lowers on the market leave the FCG pocket unmachined. An industry has arisen specifically to provide jigs and tools so that users can machine this pocket easily at home.

    There is no federal requirement that such a lower, completed at home for personal use, be marked with a serial number or manufacturer data. Hence, these are untraceable "sterile" weapons, or "ghost guns."

    That's the state of the law currently. It's easy to see that the proliferation of such incomplete receivers, combined with the tools to complete them and the unregulated remainder of the parts, has made the existing FFL regulatory system practically moot (at least regarding the AR platform). This may be good or bad, depending on your point of view.
     
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  2. SunnySlopes

    SunnySlopes Member

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    This. The San Fransicko DA has no problem with crime or criminals. That's why there is a recall effort to get this turkey out of office because crime there is pandemic. They don't arrest or prosecute shoplifters for anything under $1,000 and some businesses have closed because of it.

    This is all about being anti gun. Do some research on this guy's background. He's hardcore leftist.
     
  3. BlueHeelerFl

    BlueHeelerFl Member

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    US Federal law allows a citizen the right to build their own personal firearm. Since it is for personal use the law does not require the firearm to have a serial number.

    These firearms are only for personal use. You cannot sell or give them away without becoming legally a manufacturer.

    An "80%" frame is an incomplete handgun or rifle frame or lower. They require additional machining to be an actual working part.

    Since they lack certain completed features they are not considered frames or lowers by the ATF and do not require serial numbers.
     
  4. Rule3

    Rule3 Member

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    Exactly! From the article:

    SAN FRANCISCO (AP) — San Francisco's district attorney said Wednesday he is suing three California companies that make and distribute “ghost guns,” the untraceable, build-it-yourself weaponry that accounted for nearly half the firearms recovered in gun killings in the city last year.

    So exactly how many guns were actually recovered after a "killing"?????

    1 gun? two guns?

    How many is "nearly" half of some unknown number??:scrutiny:
     
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  5. AlexanderA
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    AlexanderA Member

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    That's not been settled. If you build a gun for personal use, using an "80%" lower, there's nothing to stop you from later selling it or giving it away. One transaction like this would not make you a manufacturer.

    The cases that are prosecuted (for manufacturing without a license and for not applying serial numbers) are ones where there's a pattern of such behavior.
     
  6. danez71

    danez71 Member

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    The article linked in the OP does give some context by saying...

     
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  7. Idahou

    Idahou Member

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    Thanks
    I must admit that sounds... well, at least odd. Making firearm without proper registration and proof marks is felony in CZ (and i think in all EU) and such firearms are considered more dangerous than factory ones - mostly because homemade guns here made from scratch
     
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  8. Corpral_Agarn

    Corpral_Agarn Member

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    Not before the recall election!
     
  9. Rule3

    Rule3 Member

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    In 2020, California accounted for 65% of all ghost guns seized by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, a statement from Boudin's office said.

    But how can that be? California has such strict gun laws?. So the criminals buy these "ghost" guns (spending money??) and then just leave them after killing someone? or is it that their crack Police force catches these guys with the gun

    Guess they need even more laws!


    Also love the statics using percentages! How many companies and how many "ghosts" were sold in 2016??

    In San Francisco, police seized 164 ghost guns in 2020, a 2,600% increase from the six confiscated in 2016.:what:
     
  10. DoubleMag

    DoubleMag Member

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    I call it...

    "make an excuse, {after} turn them loose"
     
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  11. danez71

    danez71 Member

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    Well, and 80% isnt a gu and as I said in my earlier post, an 80% is not illegal in CA - completing one without a S/N is.


    Yeah, both of those and other ways like drug raids or found during arrests for other crimes...

    But I get what you're saying.

    What I thought was interesting was the claim that CA represented 65% of ALL of the ATF seizures. If true, that's significant.
     
  12. Basura Blanca

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    Yep, but as I mentioned, in San Diego it's not entirely clear yet (it's up for a final vote next month) but it sounds like the city ordinance would actually ban owning so-called 80% receivers, and non-serialized parts. This was the point raised by the only city councilperson who voted against it. In essence, a local law will go well beyond what the state and feds already say on the matter.

    As for the figures on "ghost guns" recovered from crimes, the author of the ban cites figures straight from LE. It's not SF but San Diego is a much larger metro area with a bigger population. It all seems a bit dubious, but the numbers show a similar uptick between the two areas. Personally, I think our city attorney (who is decidedly anti-gun) and other powers that be are conflating any gun recovered from a crime scene that has no serial number, with true home built guns. That would be my guess. But they also claim there's a small criminal group building and selling the vast majority of these guns illegally, which isn't implausible either.
     
  13. DoubleMag

    DoubleMag Member

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    ''What I thought was interesting was the claim that CA represented 65% of ALL of the ATF seizures. If true, that's significant.''

    A REGIONAL issue to be resolved without a NATIONAL edict.
     
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  14. Rule3

    Rule3 Member

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    Yep sure, try it!

    "They contain the components of a nearly complete firearm and can be assembled at home, in minutes, into a fully functional weapon. There are numerous websites and videos online that show how to complete the assembly process with minimal effort"
     
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  15. danez71

    danez71 Member

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    Stating as a regional issue is in effect advocating/promoting further use of the successful Anti 2A strategy of divide and conquer.


    2A Rights is a national issue. We're all in this together.

    Otherwise we're like this.... ce2ac61d2d70c817af0c70d412c1d27a.jpg
     
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  16. DoubleMag

    DoubleMag Member

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    Well one thing is certain Ol' Joe thinks me way over towards the other coast , I am just as responsible as Lil' D gangbanger operating in Cali.

    And I am not. Sorry ....to....hmm...Joe.

    Everyone in together is noble and I agree until NO ONE, together, donates to the subsequent necessary lawsuits. Again noble, but there is a fact that I additionally am NOT responsible for CA's weird laws and/ or interpretation thereof.

    Again I say, everyone can ''be together'' warm & fuzzy and donate even a lowly $5 spot to the lawsuit.
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2021
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  17. CapnMac

    CapnMac Member

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    Well, the fishing is still good in Alaska . . .

    Perhaps a picture will assist:
    AR lower
    black-ar-10-80_-lower-1-pack-final__05809.1580417765.386.513.jpg
    Glock
    P80-PF940v2-BLK_1__93692.1592407149.jpg

    Ah, see, US law has never required "proofing" before sale.
    This may stem from being afflicted of lawyers willing to sue makers of badly-manufactured things on contingency. And a long history of product liability laws.
    Along with a long history of "local" manufacturers, rather than centralized industries (The Browning family started out, in the Utah Territory, as blacksmiths--machining and the like was later in the history, into John Moses and his brothers' time).

    There's actually been a long history of "guns parts kits" in the US, if made, in small numbers, by FFL 02 manufacturers and serialized (as required by Federal Law) parts. Caspian was one of those companies--and created the "bare bones" for highly customized competition pistols.

    Somebody came up with a notion that a gun part that needed end-user machining work (typically holes drilled and some material removal, nothing affecting temper or material strength) where the worst possible outcome was misalignment of pins, not ka-boom. As a marketing decision, the name applied to those bits was "80 percent" which has no "legal" standing.

    There's not a good parallel in Europe for this.
     
  18. AlexanderA
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    AlexanderA Member

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    On an AR, the fact that the lower receiver is the serialized part, but not the pressure-containing part, is what makes this whole "80%" phenomenon possible. Take a Mauser 98 type rifle, for example. Marketing an unfinished Mauser receiver would not be feasible, because the necessary heat treatment, etc., would be beyond the capabilities of the home craftsman.

    This all goes back to the initial ATF decision to put the serial number on the lower. In retrospect, that was a mistake. Other 2-part designs, such as the Thompson, the HK, the FAL, and even the Ruger .22 pistol, all have the serial number on the upper.
     
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  19. Quiet

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    Under current CA laws...

    "firearm precursor part" = unfinished receiver
    "self-made firearm" = firearm that is made by a person that is not licensed as a 07-FFL.

    It is CA illegal for a self-made firearm to violate CA unsafe handgun laws or CA prohibited weapons (assault weapon, DD, MG, SBR, SBS) laws.

    Starting 07-01-2018...

    In order to legally make a self-made firearm using a firearm precursor part, the person making it must submit an "Unique Serial Number Application" (USNA) to CA DOJ BOF.
    If approved, CA DOJ BOF will issue a serial number with approved marking info that must be engraved onto the self-made firearm within 10 days of receiving the CA DOJ BOF approval. Proof, with pictures, the self-made firearm is properly engraved must be submitted to CA DOJ BOF during that 10 day period. Within 30 days of receiving CA DOJ BOF approval, the maker can legally complete the receiver into a functional CA legal firearm and must update the self-made firearm's final configuration with pictures to CA DOJ BOF within that 30 day window. Modifying the self-made firearm so that it no longer meets the final submitted configuration, after the 30 day window closed, is considered manufacturing a new illegal self-made firearm.
    ^This process will register the self-made firearm with CA DOJ.

    If the firearm precursor part is not made from metal, then it is required to have 3.7oz of 17-4 PH stainless steel embedded into the firearm precursor part in such a manner that removal of that stainless steel will significantly damage or destroy the receiver. The CA DOJ BOF issued serial number must be engraved on that 3.7oz of stainless steel.
    ^There are no commercially available "80%" polymer receiver that meets this requirement.

    All non-exempt self-made firearms made before 07-01-2018 must be voluntarily registered with CA DOJ or destroyed or taken out of CA; before 01-01-2019.

    Starting 01-01-2019...

    It is CA illegal to possess an unregistered self-made firearm in CA.

    It is CA illegal to transfer the ownership of a non-exempt self-made firearm within CA.
    ^The only exemption to this is the surrender to law enforcement for destruction.

    Starting 07-01-2022...

    It will be illegal to import, make, or transfer a firearm precursor part in CA; unless it is done through a CA licensed firearm precursor parts vendor or CA FFL dealer.
    Transfer of a firearm precursor part by a CA licensed firearm precursor parts vendor or CA FFL dealer will require a CA DROS submission and CA background check.

    It will be CA legal for the CA AG or any of the CA DA's Offices or any CA city attorney to bring civil action on anyone, that is not a CA licensed firearm precursor parts vendor or CA FFL dealer, who imports or sells firearm precursor parts in CA.

    Firearm precursor parts possessed by a non-exempt person are considered nuisance items and subject to confiscation/destruction if discovered by CA LEOs.
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2021
  20. SunnySlopes

    SunnySlopes Member

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    An interesting aside:

    https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2021/08/24/andrew-cuomo-grants-clemency-to-former-weather-underground-militant-father-of-san-francisco-da/

    "Gilbert’s son, Chesa Boudin, is a proponent of “criminal justice reform” who has backed off the prosecution of petty crime in San Francisco, and faces a possible recall. He enjoys the support of other left-wing prosecutors, such as the George Soros-baced district attorney of Los Angeles County, George Gascón, who is also facing a recall effort of his own."

    Boudin at his swearing in ceremony in san fran. Small, sick, sick world in which we live. Pity. I used to love san fran.
    Chesa-Boudin-Associated-Press-1.jpg

    Soros. Cuomo. Gascon. Boudin. Etc. Etc.

    It is all very interesting, and infuriating. how the dots connect. Almost like an Orwellian dystopian novel.
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2021
  21. AlexanderA
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    AlexanderA Member

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    Thanks for the summary.

    From this, it appears that the San Francisco DA is going after something that will not be illegal until July 1, 2022. Up to now, all the California "ghost gun" legislation applies at the end-user level, not at the level of the suppliers of the "precursor" parts.

    Some "precursor" parts (incomplete receivers) are never intended to be made into working guns. They're used to make "dummy" guns for display only. (I'm thinking here of the Thompson receivers made by the late Doug Richardson of Malibu, California. Sadly, he died recently. Had he lived, surely he would have run afoul of the new law.)
     
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  22. LiberalVet

    LiberalVet Member

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    This affects you how?
     
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  23. Pat Riot
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    Pat Riot Contributing Member

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    Since this ( my comment) was 34 days ago I can only guess that you are asking because you wish to start an argument or perhaps get me to respond so you can massage your ego with glib retorts.

    Go about your business. Will not waste any more of my time on this or discussion of this future bastion of utopian communism.
     
  24. kwguy

    kwguy Member

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    The time is ticking downward! As soon as you’re free from Cali, get some unfinished lowers, receivers, or whatever is they’re supposed to be called and build something cool! :thumbup:
     
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  25. Pat Riot
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    Pat Riot Contributing Member

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    Yes Sir, you betcha! :D
    284 days…
    The first thing I think I will do is convert my CA legal AR into a AR-15 with some Magpul furniture, a YHM Phantom 5C2 flash hider and I am popping all the rivets out of all my magazines that limit them to 10 rounds. :cool:
     
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