Quantcast
  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

sandbox vet's input needed

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by gunnie, Nov 8, 2010.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. gunnie

    gunnie Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2007
    Messages:
    787
    what is the force multiplier ratio of your M16 + PNV over insurgency AKs + as issued eyesight at night?

    gunnie
     
  2. HorseSoldier

    HorseSoldier Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2006
    Messages:
    5,297
    Location:
    Anchorage, AK
    Everything is situational, but generally imagine having 20/20 or so vision and being in a gunfight with someone who has 20/200 vision and no glasses or contacts. Up close it doesn't matter as much (and that's where white light gets used) but the further you push the range the more the difference starts to show.
     
  3. Al Thompson

    Al Thompson Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2002
    Messages:
    8,847
    Location:
    South Carolina
    Ditto. Over 50 yards or so (depending on ambient light, dust, etc., etc.) and the force ratio dramatically rises as distance increases. Add in thermal sights (M1 series tank) and you are essentially fighting blind bad guys.
     
  4. RainDownmyBlues

    RainDownmyBlues Member

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2006
    Messages:
    115
    When I was in Afghanistan the enemy learned pretty darn quickly not to try and engage at night, it was a lost cause.

    We also were orders not to move much during the day, 95 percent of all IED casualties happen during the day time, it's much harder to be effective with an IED when you can't see the battlefield.
     
  5. essayons21

    essayons21 Member

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2008
    Messages:
    1,232
    Location:
    Down by the rivah, VA
    What really gives an advantage at night are vehicle mounted thermal optics, especially the Gyrocam system with a good operator and a IR laser. Its almost unfair... almost.
     
  6. Tim the student

    Tim the student Member

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2009
    Messages:
    3,427
    Location:
    IA
    I think HorseSoldier nailed it pretty well. But, IMO, the NVG's must be accompanied by an optic that is compatible with night NVG's. Iron sights are a lost cause when used alone with NVG's I think.
     
  7. APIT50

    APIT50 Member

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2008
    Messages:
    142
    Location:
    Cornhusker State
    Depends on the ambient light or IR source. We had Surefire spotlights with the IR filter on M2HB's and with a PVS-14 you can pretty much own the night. This is mostly for open areas though. In an urban environment with many ambient light sources it can actually hinder you because of the flare in your optic. In the open they are dependent on the amount of ambient light. I also used a turret mounted weapon with an integrated NVG scope and if it wasn't a moonlit night you couldn't see very far. Turn on your spotlights without a filter and your scope flares out on you.
    Thermal is so very nice in open terrain at night. Light sources do no affect it.
     
  8. APIT50

    APIT50 Member

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2008
    Messages:
    142
    Location:
    Cornhusker State
    Sorry got sidetracked on the M16 vs AK topic....
    When the two are compared within CQB range there isn't a lot of difference.
    As the range increases the multiplier goes up. Ambient light sources will play a big role though.
     
  9. gunnie

    gunnie Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2007
    Messages:
    787
    so it seems an actual NV weapon sight is more effective than the goggles. is this due to requiring point shooting, rather than aimed fire as Tim the student said?

    overall, do you feel the reason for CQB loss of advantage is ambient light giving up your position, or do you feel the muzzle flash was doing it? if the correct answer is "C, none of the above" what would you attribute it to? excessive magnification of the weapon sight for close use? time lost in target acquisition? please elaborate.

    gunnie
     
  10. APIT50

    APIT50 Member

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2008
    Messages:
    142
    Location:
    Cornhusker State
    In a cqb environment spray and pray is actually fairly effective and negate a lot of the advantage of night vision
     
  11. Shadow 7D

    Shadow 7D Member

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2008
    Messages:
    7,005
    Location:
    Frozen North
    Night vision removes the enemies cover of darkness and allows you to operate with increased stelth.

    In CQB you are either really good at stealth or you are fighting the close in dirty battle that CQB is. Oh and those flares, absolutely ruin night vision, and are a literal pain.
     
  12. Shadow 7D

    Shadow 7D Member

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2008
    Messages:
    7,005
    Location:
    Frozen North
    Not much to add, it's a different game at night, and a much different game under NOD's
    until you do it, and get trained, really hard to explain
     
  13. LaEscopeta

    LaEscopeta Member

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2005
    Messages:
    983
    Location:
    Los Estados Unidos
    I wonder if deep pocket Al Qaeda supporters are looking at buying night vision equipment and distributing in Iraq/Afghanistan. Or if they are looking at ways to create “flares” in US night vision equipment (i.e. a flash light, possibly with non visible light, that sets off a “flare” when shone at night vision equipment.)

    I wonder is potential future enemies of the US are looking at expanding their night vision capabilities, and/or looking at ways to defeat US night vision equipment.
     
  14. Shadow 7D

    Shadow 7D Member

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2008
    Messages:
    7,005
    Location:
    Frozen North
    It's controlled under the defense industry and required a license to export, but go to wally world and see where the NV scope is from....

    I don't think China is selling milsup at wally world.
     
  15. Al Thompson

    Al Thompson Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2002
    Messages:
    8,847
    Location:
    South Carolina
    Seven years in Iraq, ten in Afghanistan. Suspect they would have done it by now. :rolleyes: Wouldn't much matter though, with out good training your equipment is very, very secondary.
     
  16. Shadow 7D

    Shadow 7D Member

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2008
    Messages:
    7,005
    Location:
    Frozen North
    Um, it's there, and it is found, just not much, nor by that many (that we get)

    and most is of coarse OURs, or at least the stuff we give the IDF and cops.
     
  17. gunnie

    gunnie Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2007
    Messages:
    787
    APIT50,

    my original posting was worded to be within the realm of "average"* experience of our soldiers. please indulge my curiosity as to how effective one in my circumstances can hope for the PNV weapon sight to be.....

    if this were translated into sillyvillian terms, (IE: no rock and roll position on the safety lever), do you feel the spray and pray tactic would still be as viable/effective?

    was hoping for a more widespread database to work from on this. suppose the military computer servers in afganastan and iraq have blocked this web site, as it was in kuwait last year. the idea seemed beyond comprehension to me, the army trains, arms and deploys their soldiers with firearms. even us DOD kids had to dump a magazine of 9mm at fort benning to deploy. yet doesn't allow access to firearm related information in cyberland?

    also, please indulge my breaking far off-thread to offer up my heartfelt THANK YOU to all who have sacrificed and even gone into harm's way for us CONUS americans now on veteran's day. without out all of you, we would be fighting it out here on our own soil, instead!

    gunnie

    *foolishly assuming that ANY combat engagement could be considered "average".
     
  18. pro2

    pro2 Member

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2010
    Messages:
    136
    Location:
    michigan
    There is a reason why American soldiers train and fight under the cover of darkness. ;) The enemy hides at night.

    The newer thermal optics available to US soldiers are impressive.

    Typically, anything that will interfere with night optics will also telegraph the position of the enemy.
     
  19. wideym

    wideym Member

    Joined:
    May 30, 2007
    Messages:
    928
    Location:
    Arkansas
    There is a reason we say "we own the night". Nearly every troop was issued the newer PVS-14, except maybe ten or so in my company. Even though we were stationed in Baghdad, power outages and drivng curfews left the city mostly dark and made the use of NVGs a plus.

    All our firefights happened within 75 yards at the most extreme range, while most happened within a city block or across the street. NVGs really helped identify insurgent ambushes and IEDs before entering the killzone or identifiying moving insurgents vs. civilians at other times of darkness.
     
  20. gunnie

    gunnie Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2007
    Messages:
    787
    ..."The newer thermal optics available to US soldiers are impressive."...

    roger that! our machinist at arifjan made up a rotating mount that also had some ninety degrees of elevation adjustment for mounting an elcan thermal monocular on the roof of a HUMMER with an inboard screen fed through the output port...

    http://www.atncorp.com/atn-nightvision-thermal-camera-elcan-phantom-ir

    ...i got the officer pushing the project to let me look through same at night. i'd have to allow that merely "impressive" didn't do them justice, though. at that point, i realized that i NEEDED to score same technology in a weapon sight. very little investigation revealed that until the publisher's clearing house prize comity dropped by my house, this just wasn't gonna happen.

    gunnie
     
  21. gunnie

    gunnie Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2007
    Messages:
    787
  22. Shadow 7D

    Shadow 7D Member

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2008
    Messages:
    7,005
    Location:
    Frozen North
    Hey, gunnie, yeah, it sucks, and it's kinda scary to realize with the handhelds that you are hold that much money in your hand or slung on your back, seen some of the weapons mountable ones? My gunner kept his on his M4 when he was dismounted, not something left on your ma duce even inside the company gates.
     
  23. gunnie

    gunnie Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2007
    Messages:
    787
    Shadow 7D,

    sorry i didn't respond to your posting when i first read it, have been a long while with the moderators, due to the "force and length" of my rantings at the thread link pasted in posting # 21.

    as a taxpayer like yourself, i commend the efforts you and others have made to insure the retention of these WAY overpriced optics. the army would do well to advise the contractors who literally throw them over their shoulders into a pile at DRMO in arifjan to learn from your example.

    gunnie
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page