Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by Onmilo, Nov 25, 2013.
I saw a weapon section documenting rounds expended and non expended.
Saiga 12 not used left in car. Moved to trunk by police, that is what was seen in the video that people discussed.
Sounds like 2 10 round magazines were with it.
P226 9mm pistol, and Glock 20 10mm pistol. Good quantity of pistol rounds possessed but only 1 round fired to commit suicide.
Bushmaster XM-15e2s AR15 type rifle.
Glock 10mm 1 round expended and jammed (likely from limp wristing). Used to commit suicide.
P226 9mm never fired.
XM-15 used for all the other shooting.
Bolt action .22lr savage mk2 used to kill mother earlier.
All firearms were legally purchased by the mother.
Rifle sounds to have been in working condition when he committed suicide with the pistol, though one described it as jammed another did not. Confusing.
Still had 14 rounds in magazine, 1 in chamber, and over 60 unfired remaining including another full 30 round magazine.
Separate gun used altogether to kill his mother. Mother purchased all guns and ammunition.
Shooter had at least a drop thigh holster. This leaves the question of whether he was the prime owner of the gun and had his own holster, bought a holster for a gun he planned to take, or the mother had a drop thigh holster for the gun.
The only reason his gear matters is it would demonstrate he had previously purchased gear to be used with the firearms. Which matters because whether they were his or his mothers in actuality is still confusing, though it is clear the mother was the legal purchaser of them it is unclear whether he had regular access to them.
The choice to use a bolt action .22lr in killing his mother firing 4 shots creates some questions.
Was it to be quiet, or was it because the mother owned and stored the other firearms and he was using his own .22lr to kill the mother and then took the firearms she kept and subsequently used them?
First call received by police at 9:35:39.
Last gunshot heard 9:40:03.
Just over 4 minutes between when police were first called and shooter committed suicide.
Shooter supposedly had an interest in mass killings, specifically shootings covered in media. Hard to verify now or whether that is selective remembering in light of his actions. If true yet another demonstration of mass media coverage inspiring others to copycat.
They also believe that the highest attainable goal is fame. Wealth was a distant second. They believed fame would allow them to be the one that others offered sex to in order to get ahead.
This isn't really gun related except to say that the ones I knew saw guns only as a means to an end. The report makes out that a fascination with guns led them to want to kill which is all too typical of the PC crowd. I know my exposure to kids with issues about this subject is limited but from what I've read a lot of the shooters were pretty much on the same plane. That's why they were worshipped as heroes by society's lost kids.
I don't know how to change human nature. Kids will bully other kids. Schools can certainly punish the bullies. I've seen lives ruined by bullying. Dropping out of school was just the beginning of the victim's troubles. I was never a bully to anyone that I'm aware of but maybe others saw me that way. It's hard to guess what's in other's minds.
I really think the media needs to take a step back and not sensationalize these events so much. That only feeds the dragon IMO. I don't know how they do that since it is big news. But they could do something based on the fact that they are contributing to the problem. Surely they know that. But their own selfish ends cloud their judgement IMO. They don't report the names of rape victims. How about not reporting the names of school killers? No more instant fame. That would have a positive effect IMO.
The search of the home turned up, "A Christmas check from the mother to the shooter to purchase a CZ 83 firearm." That certainly indicates she was buying guns for him at least in part. I've heard no reports of her being a shooter but that doesn't mean she wasn't. There was a number of edge weapons also (only description given - could have been pen knives for all I know) which also indicates he was the gun person. His database of school shooter info certainly indicates why he might have been interested in weapons too. There were no reports of his mother having any such interests. Of course the report was created by people we don't know and we don't know what they left out.
Preaching to choir. They need to start treating them the way they did the assassin of President McKinley back in the day.
From the report: ten rounds were in one PMAG 30 magazine, thirteen rounds were in another such magazine and one live round was on the floor. There was a third empty PMAG 30 magazine seized. There were a total of eighty expended 5.56 mm casings seized from classroom 8.
That accounts for 67 of the rounds right there. I'd guess the other ones came out of the two taped pmags found in the other classroom.
There were also some fired outside and elsewhere in the school. I suppose one could go through the exercise of figuring it out, but it hardly seems worth the time.
Apparently he fired the 10mm twice during his time in the classroom, it jammed, he cycled cleared it four times before he got a round to chamber and killed himself with it when the gun jammed yet again, yet the pistol functioned normally when fired by Police analysists.
The expernded casing found in the hallway was either kicked there by first responders or ejected out the open doorway to the classroom.
I think the limp wristing observation is correct and the Glock was unfamiliar and perhaps a bit too much for the shooter to handle yet he never transitioned to the P226,,,
Nobody intrigued by either of the two detained reporters or the detained inquisitive man not being named in the report?
10mm was a touch much for him, it appears.
I think the only silver lining here is the shooter didn't really know all that much about what he was doing (failure at immediate action drills, dropping mostly-full magazines on the floor, etc), and apparently lost the stomach for it shortly after it started.
Could have been a whole lot worse.
Of course, other Press accounts called her a "Prepper", so you can take that as you see fit.
I am currently reading the reports from the State's web site. Lots of detail, but nothing surprising yet that hasn't been previously reported in the news.
There goes the mental health angle.
The shooter was addicted to Dance Dance Revolution, a dancing video game, playing it 4-10hrs at a time. The list of owned games include normal, popular titles including some FPS and RPG titles.
So much for the "violent video games" angle.
The shooter had no established gripes with his a schooling experience. He was not bullied.
So much for the bullied revenge shorter angle.
Video games and mental health were "throw someone under the bus" talking points used by the NRA to find a scapegoat while liberals attacked guns so the political spectrum covered all bases of, "there ought to be a law...".
Um....no....this guy was OBVIOUSLY mentally unstable.
So yeah the mental health angle is OBVIOUSLY still there
It doesn't address the early report his mother was considering moving him to a group home out of state. Consider: he hadn't allowed her into his room for quite a while, had obviously become obsessed with mass shootings ( if the statements are correct, ) and is accused of having no empathy - he couldn't relate to others in difficult circumstances.
It's going to force mental health authorities to look at whether they need to be more invasive in monitoring known individuals, how their caretakers are dealing with issues, or even enabling them in their own ignorance.
That is going to incite the typical knee jerk reaction that there are gun grabbers at the door step. We are being forced to consider that the situation is a lot more complicated than we'd like it to be.
The analysis of the relationships between his parents, health authorities, and the apparent lack of foresight brings a lot to the table. One thing for sure, profiling the shooter as being highly nonviolent isn't going to be done as easily for others now.
There are some serious issues of reducing personal liberty when ideas of invasive monitoring and involuntary committal come into play. In this particular instance, it would require incredible violations of rights to keep an eye on everything he did to even catch his online fascination with mass shootings, which in itself is not a precursor to being a mass shooter.
Unfortunately I've run into gun owners in my personal life with second amendment myopia who are willing to burn the rest of the Constitution to keep their guns. The entire document is important and we can't trade tit for tat like some Turkish bazaar bartering game.
I'm perfectly happy living in a world where you can stockpile as much ammo and guns you can afford, where there is no TSA, where we don't toss the generic mentally ill into looney bins, violent games, and weirdos can pass out their communist or scientology literature freely to uninterested pedestrians. Guess that makes me atypical that I value personal freedom above government-supplied security. The "there ought to be a law" line of reasoning ususually comes with a stiff price.
The NRA didn't say we need to stigmatize anyone or restrict their rights... If I recall correctly, they just said we need to spend more money on studying mental health and care of mental health, than we do on trying to ban guns.
But to say mental illness didn't play any part in this is ridiculous
It may not be like a lot of people, including myself, assumed. That lack of clear indicator to mental health professionals is consistent with what was pointed out in the WSJ article. http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702303309504579181702252120052
Yes, this sort of behavior is madness, but the perpetrator may not be psychotic, but have a personality/emotional disorder instead.
This kid had some kind of eating disorder.
Goes without saying. He was plagued by mental illness(es), which eating disorders are. He may very well have been plagued by physical illness as well. I'm also interested to learn which medications he took regularly. I would wager it wasn't a short list.
We are also forced to consider that our social structure has completely changed, that these kinds of individuals now riddle that structure due to that change; that the State knows no options other that to continue to screw down tighter & tighter controls at the individual level; and that a rise in "predictive behavior analysis" will be an increasingly invasive force in those controls.
"We have met the enemy and he is us," notes Pogo, and I note that "us" is the male half of our population (current Forum members excluded, of course)
- Over the past thirty years, the rise in violent crime parallels the rise in families abandoned by fathers.
- High-crime neighborhoods are characterized by high concentrations of families abandoned by fathers.
- State-by-state analysis by Heritage scholars indicates that a 10 percent increase in the percentage of children living in single-parent homes leads typically to a 17 percent increase in juvenile crime.
- The rate of violent teenage crime corresponds with the number of families abandoned by fathers.
- The type of aggression and hostility demonstrated by a future criminal often is foreshadowed in unusual aggressiveness as early as age five or six. [This my wife can attest to FIRST HAND... as a 1st-grade teacher for 20 years]
- The future criminal tends to be an individual rejected by other children as early as the first grade who goes on to form his own group of friends [OR STAYS A LONER], often the future delinquent gang
The real bottom line in the NewTown report is that they don't know what caused it, and that the professional shrinks say they never saw it coming. That is the sort of analysis that fairly begs for a "disarm everybody" response by today's state, since they feel utterly powerless to come up with any other action -- and refuse to confront the politically incorrect Elephant in the Room.
The truly sad part is not that one man with a gun was able to do all this.
The sad part is the refusal to consider that one man with a gun could have stopped it.
In the land of the blind the one-eyed man is – and remains - King.
The list of meds. his doctors prescribed to him has not been released but everyone who knew the family says he has been on meds. for years.
When a patient stops taking the meds. withdraw symptoms have been described as "Worse then the original illness.". The companies that sell the drugs put in the fine print, which patients/parents never see since it is in the pages of paperwork that is given to the doctors, that when a patient stops treatment they are to be under the close supervision of a doctor for weeks while the patient is weaned off of the meds.
Violent psychotic episodes are common when the patient goes Cold Turkey.
From the article: Joshua Flashman, a 25-year-old Marine who grew up near the Lanza’s home, told FoxNews.com that Lanza’s mother, Nancy, had been petitioning the courts to gain conservatorship over Adam in order to have him committed to a psychiatric ward and that Adam was “really, really angry about this.” Flashman also said that Nancy had volunteered to work with kindergartners at Sandy Hook, who would be first-graders now, and that Adam believed “she cared more for the children than she did for him.”
Everyone knew he was in bad mental trouble.
I said it when the first threads were started about this shooting; get it out front that the health care system failed the guy and dangerous meds. without proper doctor supervision is the issue here...
The dangerous meds. are in the public view for about a week, if that, after these shootings and then everyone forgets about it...until the next shooting.
Our oldest son (age 42) was diagnosed with mild Autism in the late 1980's. Prior to that time, Autism primarily meant "Rain Man". Autism is now a spectrum disorder. He has severe Asperger's, but has not acted out in the manner that the Sandy Hook shooter did. His diagnosis from several psychologists has been mild Autism, but severe Asperger's Syndrome.
Aspergers do have fears which are exacerbated relative to those who don't have the syndrome. They shy away from new situations, and are very rigid in daily routines. There's also evidence out there that Aspergers get overstimulated from computers and television.
The shooter had a host of psychological disorders, it appears. The Autism and Asperger's are but two of the disorders which manifested themselves in the shooter. This youngster needed far more than outpatient care. From the description in the report, he should have been in some sort of institutional setting, at least temporarily.
The mother, and this is no indictment of her, was a passive enabler. She was equipped with knowledge (the books on Asperger's Syndrome), but lacked the insistence of putting her son in a setting where long-term treatment may have been beneficial.
Our son had a "melt down" in early 2007. He attempted to harm himself, was hospitalized, and eventually moved in with us. There is no "getting over" Asperger's Syndrome. Medication is helpful short term, but treatment requires a lifetime of reinforcing acceptable social behavior.
Separate names with a comma.