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Satisfactory but unnecessary LEO interaction today...

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by Gottahaveone, Sep 25, 2008.

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  1. driftpin

    driftpin Member

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    I don't think he had reasonable suspicion either. I'm sure the county keeps records of the past complaints in triplicate and on the computer, so before the officer even arrived, he most likely knew what was going on back there, he probably knew a minute after he got the call. I probably wouldn't have called him on it though. Heck piss the neighbor off and invite the deputy to a Saturday shoot.
     
  2. cassandrasdaddy

    cassandrasdaddy Member

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  3. pbearperry

    pbearperry Member

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    Putting a no trespassing sign outside of a meth lab will work about as well as garlic keeping vampires away.If the cops came onto the property on their own,that would have been trespassing.However once someone makes a complaint,they have the right to investigate it,or at least have a threshold inquiry.Some of the people in here that complain about the cops overstepping their bounds probably bad mouth the cops for doing nothing when they are the complainant of something.Thank God I am retired.Hey John Q Public...F*CK OFF. Hey it's my right under the first ammendment.lol
     
  4. Treo

    Treo member

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    I stand corrected
     
  5. Treo

    Treo member

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    What about those of us who don't call the cops?

    To clarify the above, I would call the cops if I was the victim of a crime, but not W/ any expectation that they'd do any more than come take a report of the crime.
     
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2008
  6. nicademus

    nicademus Member

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    Let’s get to the important stuff; do you have any job openings???
     
  7. P90shooter

    P90shooter Member

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    Ok can we get a true answer from someone who knows? I know everyone here wants to be a monday morning quarter back and give their opinnion but please I think we lost the point of the OP's original question.

    Can a LEO or even a lawyer give us their interpretation of the law and back it up with actual proof?

    Sorry not trying to be rude but the OP has a good question that I would love to see the answer.
     
  8. Erik

    Erik Member

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    I've seen "reasonable suspicion" and "probable cause" mentioned as justification standards. Neither are necessary, along with notification or invitation. The standard is "on official business."
     
  9. Erik

    Erik Member

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    "Ok can we get a true answer from someone who knows?"

    Yes. I submit posts 12 and 33 for your review.
     
  10. Gottahaveone

    Gottahaveone Member

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    Sure, the roll out was official business. So is hauling drunks to detox. I just don't buy that all it takes is a complaint to allow uninvited (by the property OWNER... YOU can't invite somebody onto MY property) access onto private property to to investigate an alleged crime. The officer KNEW that there were legal circumstances under which a firearm could be discharged on that particular piece of property. So even if he were reasonable in assuming that the caller had in fact heard shots, he had the obligation to assume the discharges taking place were in fact legal because he had NO REASONABLE evidence to say they were not. Therefor, there was NO reason for any "investigation", or any entry onto the property. If he had reversed the sequence and came to the office first, I would have almost certainly allowed him access to the range. Almost. But the point is, it should be MY choice to make.
     
  11. Jeff White

    Jeff White Moderator Staff Member

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    That's all it takes, if you buy it or not, that's the law. When the complaint was called in, the officer was given the right to investigate. If your theory was true one could commit all kinds of crimes on his property and be protected by his no trespassing sign.

    Say someone put up a no trespassing sign and then proceeded to rape and brutally murder a prostitute they just picked up. Neighbors heard the screams and called the police. The police arrived, stopped at the property line because of the no trespassing sign and failed to discover the dismembered body in the bushes.

    Sorry, it just doesn't work that way. If you want them to have to have a warrant to enter, do it indoors.

    The officer also knew there were illegal circumstances under which a firearm could have been used on that property too. Someone could have been murdered, some drunk could have been shooting up the place. Are you suggesting that it should be illegal to investigate an alleged crime involving gunfire if it's legal to shoot where the complaint was made?

    What reasonable evidence did he have that every was in fact on the up and up? You could have been lying there bleeding out because a disgruntled employee shot you, or you had an ND and shot yourself. Maybe they issue crystal balls to the officers where you work, but I dropped and cracked mine and I never knew for sure what was involved with a call until I got there and investigated.

    What part of; "There was a complaint" is so hard to understand. I always used to apologize and explain that when someone called in a complaint that we were obligated to respond even if we were almost positive it was unfounded.

    Not your choice to make now, nor will it be until all kinds of state and federal court precedents are overturned. If you feel so strongly about this, why don't you get status to take the case to court. Commit a crime behind the protection of your no trespassing sign, and use the argument that the police violated your Fourth Amendment rights when they entered the property without a warrant to investigate. I don't believe you would prevail, but you're welcome to try.

    Jeff
     
  12. Erik

    Erik Member

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    Someone called you in. I agree that was unnecessary, by the way. You have no idea what information was relayed to the dispatcher, except that it was sufficient to merit marked units being dispatched to your location.

    The units, upon receiving the dispatch for service, are expected to clear it.

    Upon arriving at you location, the units are not bound by trespass law. Nor do they have to ask permission of, or even notify, the property owner(s). So they proceeded, clearing the call. Professionally by your own accord.

    ---

    Edited: Doh! I took to long typing and editing and Jeff beat me to the play-by-play answer.

    ---

    There does not have to be an "investigation," so don't get too wrapped up about that It can be about papers, about the view of another property, about convenience, whatever... so long as it is of an official business nature. I use the Open Fields Doctrine to my advantage regularly.
     
  13. Officers'Wife

    Officers'Wife Member

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    I'm sorry Jeff White. Please point me to the portion of the Constitution which grants the state 'reasonable suspicion.' I missed the first four times I was forced to read it.

    Selena
     
  14. GonHuntin

    GonHuntin Member

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    What if, instead of a chain, the area had been surrounded with a 6 foot fence and a locked gate........does law enforcement have the right to climb the fence or cut the lock based on a simple shots fired call in an area where it is LEGAL to shoot???

    At what point do they need a warrant to enter the property????
     
  15. Jeff White

    Jeff White Moderator Staff Member

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    When the property is a building. Although there are laws that give officers the right to enter outbuildings to investigate things like animal abuse without a warrant. Those laws vary by state. Conservation officers also have statutory powers to enter some structures and look for violations of the wildlife code. In fact a conservation officer has more powers granted to him under the state and federal wildlife codes then probably any other peace officer.
     
  16. Tyris

    Tyris member

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    Gottahaveone: buy a silencer.

    Here's the order of events and how they will eventually unfold:

    1. you keep shooting to the annoyance of the other neighbors/businesses
    2. cops show up and do nothing
    3. callers eventually realize that it is not illegal and stop calling cops
    4. callers start calling city council or the county to stop you from shooting
    5. some form of restriction on weapon discharge is passed after enough complaints
    6. you're SOL and your little range is no more.

    I dont think "showing him around", etc, will quell the annoyance of gun shots in his place of work.

    Put a silencer on your pistol and the annoyance factor of shooting outdoors near others goes away. You can keep your range and not piss off the other guy.

    -T
     
  17. GonHuntin

    GonHuntin Member

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    Thanks Jeff.......not doubting your word at all, but can you tell me where to find the laws that support your answer???
     
  18. Guns_and_Labs

    Guns_and_Labs Member

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    Hester v. United States, 265 U.S. 57, 59 (1924)
    Oliver v. United States, 466 U.S. 170 (1984)

    The links and articles are up in post 12 by Erik. Good reading, thanks, Erik.
     
  19. Erik

    Erik Member

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    You're welcome. There's lots out there on the 'net if you know where to look; running down references, etc. I thought those links where as good a place to begin as any for those interested in discovering more. I'm glad it was helpful.
     
  20. Erik

    Erik Member

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    Those of you confused about whether law enforcement can enter certain parts of your property should familiarize yourselves with what your curtilage consists of. In a nutshell, areas outside the curtilage have no 4A protections, while areas inside the curtilage have 4A protections. Those protections vary from the home to the place of business; something to be mindful of. Yes, it is nebulous and evolving.

    And although it hasn't come up, no, you may not justifiably shoot people you believe are trespassing in open fields out of hand, whether they are civilians trespassing, or law enforcement personnel exercising the Open Field Doctrine. Because... it is illegal. Anyone live in the USA where that isn't the case, or at least believe that they do?
     
  21. jonmerritt

    jonmerritt Member.

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    I forced two leo's off my property a couple years ago. They were prying open they corners of plywood doors on one of my locked sheds, trying to see what I had inside. I opened the back door and asked what the [email protected]@ they were doing. They looked very surprised and put there hands on ther weapons. I stepped outside and again asked ***. They said a neighbor up the road had a gokart stolen. I said your tresspassing and have to leave now. They turned and left without another word. I had nothing to do with there service call, they were way out of line and Knew it. I called the head office and complained with their badge numbers. I got a very friendly and apolagetic visit from the chief.
     
  22. sacp81170a

    sacp81170a Member

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    They were definitely out of line. The subject has been covered pretty thoroughly here, but I have to inject the little tidbit about the marijuana patch over in Madison County that was "protected" by "No Trespassing" signs. The Drug Task Force guys still get a chuckle out of that one. :rolleyes:
     
  23. Sergeant Sabre

    Sergeant Sabre Member

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    The police can go anywhere the general public can. The general public could have wandered back to your range.

    In Michigan, "no trespassing" signs usually don't mean much (except under a specific "recreational trespass" law). Trespassing doesn't occur until the accused is told to leave, and disobeys.
     
  24. Officers'Wife

    Officers'Wife Member

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    Hi jonmerritt,

    Well, the apology was something, but were you reimbursted for the vandalism on your buildings?

    Selena
     
  25. Erik

    Erik Member

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    Jonmerritt,
    Depending on if the shed was an area of curtilage, and I cannot comment from the information provided, their presence may have been allowable. Their attempted forcing entry, given the circumstances described, was not.

    I am glad you followed up and the matter was addressed at the executive level, hopefully to your satisfaction.
     
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