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Savage 12BVSS vs. Remington 700 VLS in Win .243

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by Nortonics, Apr 7, 2006.

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Savage 12BVSS vs. Remington 700 VLS in 243 Win

  1. Savage 12BVSS

    65.4%
  2. Remington 700 VLS

    34.6%
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  1. Nortonics

    Nortonics Member

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  2. ocabj

    ocabj Member

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    Definitely the Savage 12BVSS. SS action and barrel. Heavy fluted barrel 26" barrel. Excellent laminate stock with a nice comb, palm swell, and flat foreend for benchrest shooting. Large bolt knob and easily adjustable trigger. Plus the Savage has the benefit of the barrel nut design for easy barrel swaps.

    Yes, I own a Savage.
     
  3. Eat Beef

    Eat Beef Member

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    You're comparing apples and oranges as far as stainless and blued.

    That said, I'd go with the Remington. You can't beat the 700 action, unless you buy a custom.

    Go look at some benchrest forums. There's always an arguement about whether a 700 is good enough to shoot benchrest, or if you need a custom job. You never see a Savage, a Winchester, a Ruger, or even a Weatherby mentioned.

    BTW, the stainless action doesn't bring anything to the table, other than looks.

    And of course, either would be great, accurate varmint guns.

    Eat Beef
     
  4. chakup

    chakup Member

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    add another vote for the savage.
     
  5. chakup

    chakup Member

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    savage is being used more and more:
    better out of the box, easily adjustable trigger, user barrel swap capability.
     
  6. RugerOldArmy

    RugerOldArmy Member

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    Hands down, the Savage. I'd also very much disagree on the consensus in the benchrest forums. (See Benchrest.com or 6mmBR.com)

    The Rem 700 actions used to be trued for benchrest quite often. Now it is not a cost-effective option, although many still do it. There are some fine BR actions now, some that even drop-in as a replacement for a 700, that are far superior to a trued 700 action.

    For a factory rifle, the Savage has a better trigger, better barrel, and will, in most cases, out shoot the Rem out of the box.

    I still like Rem 700's, but mainly for the smoother action (than the savage), and the aftermarket parts/stock support.

    I'm confident in two things: Some will defend the Rem 700, the VLS is popular. I'm also confident the majority will vote savage. The BVSS model seems to be a particulary well liked model.
     
  7. danurve

    danurve Member

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    Shoulder each one if you can at the same shop before you decide.

    I rolled with the Remington. Some rifles just seem to mold themselves into your arms.

    [​IMG]

    That's the .243 version btw. Even with a get-by sportview scope she'll drive 70 & 85 gr. recipies into tight groups all day long. Without having to try that hard, or pushing max loads either.
    Before I started reloading I remember some 55's humping @ 100 yards. About the only ammo she didn't like much was the Express 100, go figure. But if you look closely at that ammo you'll see scoring and blemishes. Some PMC 100's solved that. Fed. premium 85's shoot sweet with the Sierra rounds, so I bought some bthp's and haven't looked back. Some guys like the Nosler ammo, so I tried the partitions. These rounds are not match rounds by far, but she'll sink 'em under 1" @ 100 w/4350 and that does not suck.
    You will get alot of opinions on the Accutrigger being better. And you know what? It is. But if you talk to most gunsmiths they will give you a solid opinion on even the factory 700 trigger.
    If I ever shoot out the barrel, and find the need to replace it with a factory or maybe a Hart barrel - then I will cross that bridge. I don't shoot continuious competition or matches either. Perhaps you do but my geuss woulld be not. So purchasing a rifle on how easy it is to swap out a barrel is a moot point. With all due respect it would be like buying a truck because of the bed liner.

    edited to add;
    I have thought about upgrading the glass many times. But it sure seems like extra funds are going into the fuel tank these days.
     
  8. hoghunting

    hoghunting Member

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    I'll take the Savage. In fact I did in 22-250, and I have never regretted it. I bought a new Rem 700 in .17 Rem and it went back to the factory twice and the problems were never completely fixed. The dealer sent it back the 3rd time, and let me trade it for the Savage. Had enough of Remington.

    The Savage is one of the most accurate rifles that I own, with 5 shot groups measuring 3/8".
     
  9. only1asterisk

    only1asterisk member

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    Either one is fine, I think I'd buy the Remington for the same money.

    David
     
  10. Kiwi98J

    Kiwi98J Member

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    Savage - Faster lock time, self centering bolthead, full contact locking lugs, adjustable headspace to my dies, button rifled barrel, recoil lub indexed to action and owner interchangable barrels and boltheads. If Savage would improve chamber porting, machine the bolt raceways instead of broaching and lap the barrel, I'd truely be happy.

    Rmington - lipstick and rouge and another trip to the smith with a wad of cash to set headspace to my dies, center the bolthead, get full locking lug contact and change a barrel. But, man are they smooth and that hammer forged barrel doesnt copper and my smiith loves me.
     
  11. js2013

    js2013 Member

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    I'm a Remington guy but if I was to buy a bolt action today it would be a Savage. Mostly because it's so easy to change barrels. I can shoot out a barrel a year and easy barrel replacement (for worn out barrels or switching calibers) is much simpler with the Savage.
     
  12. dakotasin

    dakotasin Member

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    kiwi- are you sure about the locktime? i'm pretty sure its the other way around. as for the headspace thing, i form my brass to my gun, not my gun to my brass, so that is a non-issue to me.

    the self-centering bolt-head would automatically indicate full contact lugs, but i regard that shifty bolthead as a weakness, not a strength.

    i'm not a fan of stainless actions, but i do like stainless barrels. the stainless actions bother me because i perceive them (real or imagined, i don't know, but its my perception) as inferior, and i like the looks of a blued action, especially when combined w/ a ss barrel.

    anyway, i have a few of each (actually down to my last 2 savages - finally), and the rifles i buy now are not savage (mostly remington, a few sako). so, i'd go w/ the vls (i have the 308, and a pair of 22-250's in vls). very happy w/ them.
     
  13. rangerruck

    rangerruck Member

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    but also , i would choose the 6mm over either in a heartbeat. for that you have to get an old Remmy mohawk.
     
  14. Kiwi98J

    Kiwi98J Member

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    Dakotsin

    Yes, the Savage m-10/110 series at 1.6 milliseconds from sear release to primer impact is about half the Remington 3.0 msecs and much quicker than the Winchester & Browning designs at 4.0. Aftermarkert titanium pins and heavier springs will get you faster lock times but then sear drag has to be addressed. The downside for the Savage striker design is the cocking pin is intergal with the firing pin necessitating the heavy spring Savages are noted for. I have no data for the Sako design.

    To each his own ... I count it an advantage to have my dies replicate my chambers without the cost to have custom dies made with the finish reamer.

    Again, to each his own ... For a mass produced design to lockup with "automatic" full lug contact while centering the boltface achieving concentricity of bullet centerline to receiver centerline is a significant advantage compared to a fixed bolthead, no matter your preception.
     
  15. Gewehr98

    Gewehr98 Member

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    Remington for me.

    It's the basis for most of the long-range bolt rifles in both police and military hands. I'm tickled pink with my 700PSS, the trigger was no problem to adjust where I liked it. My 1973 700 BDL Custom Deluxe is a pure joy to shoulder and shoot, as opposed to my similar vintage Savage 110. At least that particular Savage has a nice adjustable trigger, sans the fiddly safety bits seen on them now.

    One of my fellow F-Class competitors with a Savage had to quit during a match, due to that 2-piece bolt. He sheared the bolt head retaining pin. No thanks.

    So they cut the Savage chamber with the same reamer used to cut your dies, so that the headspace and all other chamber dimensions are exactly the same between the two? Neat-O! Throwing my arbor press and Redding dies away, gonna get me a benchrest Savage! Woo-Hoo!
     
  16. dakotasin

    dakotasin Member

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    it would be an advantage if you had the reamer that was used to make your chamber. otherwise, all you're doing is getting close, which can be accomplished thru neck-sizing. if you really want a tight fit, neck up your cases, then neck it down only as much as you need to fit.

    i'd like to see your lock-time source. i did a search and the only thing i came up w/ was that the lock time is reputed to be faster, but is actually slower because of additional mass.

    i still don't see the advantage of the 2-piece design, other than for cartridge changes. and really, how much of a difference does it make? i doubt, that even w/ the floating bolt head, that there is 100% lock up because that would mean the machining on the mating surfaces would have to be perfect, and i doubt that it is on any gun, much less on an economy gun. in fact, on my oldest savage (the one w/ the most use) i have a 90/40 wear pattern - certainly nowhere close to 100/100, and it closely approximates what the wear on my 700's is.
     
  17. brentwal

    brentwal Member

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    Savage
     
  18. Nortonics

    Nortonics Member

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    Guys, thank you so much for all the input! Man, I've been pondering this purchase seriously for just over a month now, as well as the glass for this thing.

    As was suggested above, I had the fortunate experience of being able to hold both of these exact guns in this exact caliber, new on the shelf at a local Gander Mountain. Now I believe this just may be a first in my gun purchasing endeavors where I was at one location, and they has the exact guns in stock at once that I could compare against!

    Without too many details, because I truly believe that both of these guns are really perfect-O as each and every one of you folks knows. Really, who can argue over a few tenths of an inch on a non-accurized gun? Serious competitors know they're gonna' drop more money into these things no matter what, and are usually happy and excited to do so.

    And also as was mentioned above, man-O-man, I sure hope that I won't be 'shouldering' either of these things too often! They are HEAVY! 10 pounds worth before optics. Nope, this gun will pretty much sit on a Harris for the Varmints and on a bench rest while punching paper.

    Another big objective of this purchase will be the pleasure and understanding of handloading for this gun. This will be my first centerfire rifle cartridge endeavor. Been loading handgun ammo for a few years now - 9 different calibers, but mainly thousands of .45 ACP for practice. Obviously these precision rifle reloadings are quite different and can be as demanding as we care it to be. I can get into this as I'm the anal one that creates pistol loads that are so precise and accurate that it's astonished me - often devising and creating loads that work for any particular gun that have a Established Spread of only 2 fps across a ten shot group running around 1000 fps in velocity. Anal for handgun ammo yes, but fun and learned a ton about how to make loads truly accurate. I think this will be a shoe-in for me...

    Okay, so back to my choice. I handled both those guns at Gander Mountain. Loveingly stroked them a bit too while the sales guy wasn't watching... :p

    Overall, looking both guns over while sitting right next to one-another there isn't a whole lot of question which one I preferred. I gotta' tell ya boys, that 12BVSS is gorgeous. The fit and finish of that thing is incredible for a $600 gun. There's other reasons why I believe this gun would be a better fit for me too - one of the big ones being that I don't plan to do a whole lot of anything to upgrade this gun further.

    Talked to Cabela's yesterday too. Promo thing on the 22nd using or opening a Cabala's Card - $100 off any $500+ purchase. They got 4 of the Win.243's in the 12BVSS ready to go at the warehouse. $640 minus the $100 - man, gotta' love that!

    Now onto glass. Seriously got my eye on the upcoming Nikon Buckmaster 6-18x40 with the all new BDC reticle - I think it'll make a good marriage with the 12BVSS.

    Thanks again guys for all your input - read it and took all comments into consideration. I'll get a post together in the future with an update I'm sure...
     
  19. Master of Arms

    Master of Arms Member

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    It`s Happening!!!

    Savage is spanking not only rifle makers in its $$$$ class but even the bigger $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ class. I own a browning a ruger and a savage and I`ve had many others so my opinion isn`t bias. The Savage’s New Model 12 F-Class is the best shooting rifle that I`ve ever witnessed. It`s made with the best materials and great parts, match chambered barrels and many different stocks can be used with it. I know that this isn`t the exact rifle that is being compared, I just thought I`d throw that in. I have read in a gun magazine, that I`ve been looking for, for about a week, that there was a test done where they bolted several different brand rifles down on the back of some sort of trailor and shot 3 rounds out of each gun at a XXX yards target. I remember that Remington, Sako, Tikka, Remington, Weatherby and CZ were used along with a few others and guess what, the Savage spanked all of them in all 3 rounds that they shot. Oh and just for the sake of telling you, the Walmart Weatherby placed second. People like to buy exotic or more expensive weapons as a testimant to their loyalty or something. Maybe it`s just to say that they own them or maybe they truly believe in them. Some people buy a particular brand because of the name. I buy them after I`ve done lots and lots of research and I never buy them without asking the folks here at THR.:D at least in the past few months while logging in at a friends and since I`ve got my own account. I strongly suggest to you that the Savage is where I`d put my money if I were you because in a way I am. I`m about to buy a Savage Model 12 just as soon as I can sale my 7 mag and I`m buying it because it is absolutely the best that I`ve found under a grand and as for you its definetly the better of the two rifles without any doubt. Personally, I don`t care for Remington at all because I`ve had nothing but bad luck with the Remingtons so I guess in a way i am bias. Read the reviews on the Savage and how its won "Rifle of the Year" a few times by a few different magazines and then read the forums here at THR on Savage`s and you`ll see that there are very few, if any, that would say anything differently than I`ve stated about a Savage. Simply put, Savage = Awsome. It probably won`t be long before Savage has alot more rifles in the 4 digit{$$$$.00} category. That`s my two cents.:)
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2008
  20. Shawnee

    Shawnee member

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    Actually, either is darned good but I'll vote Remngton (since I have one) :D

    [​IMG]


    :cool:
     
  21. YodaVader

    YodaVader Member

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    Good luck with the 12BVSS.

    Having owned a 700VLS and currently owning a 12BVSS - both in .223 , if it were not for the fact the 12BVSS is the worst fouling rifle I ever owned I could recommend it without hesitation. Luckily the Savage design allows for easy barrel/caliber changes and the appeal of a match barrel is growing on me.

    12BVSS does have a very nice out of box trigger and is free floated (the VLS needed the barrel channel relieved) Accuracy was close between the two but the VLS was far more consistent. Did replace trigger on the VLS with a Jewell but also replaced the Savage with a Sharp Shooter Supply competition trigger. But out of box the Accu-Trigger is much better.

    I still like my current owned 700s , no fouling issues and consistent accuracy.
     
  22. CZ223

    CZ223 Member

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    You made the right choice

    I just bought my eighth Savage rifle the other day. This one is the 17HMR BTVS to go with my 5 BVSS's and 2 VLP's. Obviously I am a big fan of the Savage but, to be clear, I have owned LOTS of other rifles along the way including a half dozen each Remingtons, Rugers, and a couple of Winchesters. The Remingtons never impressed me. I had a big thing for the older Rugers several years back then I started buying Savages. I now own only Savage bolt action rifles. You will love the Accu-trigger once you get used to it. If you do have fouling problems, and you probably will, just keep shooting it and clean with a strong copper solvent like Sweets. It will smooth up after a couple hundred rounds. You could also try lapping the barrel if you want to speed up the process. All of my centerfire rifles regularly turn in 1/2MOA groups and better. I shot 2 1/4" 5 shot groups the other day with with one of my 204's.:D

    As to your choice in glass, you are on the right track, I think. I have a Nikon Monarch 6.5x20 that is absolutely the brightest scope that I own. I am not familiar with the BDC model though what I have heard has been mixed. I am not a fan of anything that clutters up the scope. I own one Leupold with Mil-dots and that sits on an AR-15. I currently own 4 6.5x20 Leupolds and probably 4 or 5 more in various powers. I have not used the Nikon Buckmaster series of scopes but what I have heard is that they are a good scope for the money. I think I would go with one of those or the Leupold Rifleman series. I had a Weaver Classic 2x10 that came on a rifle that I bought used. I was very impressed with the clarity though I did sell it. I really like much higher powered scopes.

    Don't be afraid of buying extra barrels in different calibers. Good used barrels can be had for around $150. Start with something with same sized bolt face like a 308 or 22-250. All you really need to buy for tools is the barrel nut wrench. I and others can tell you how to make inexpensive jigs for changing the barrels. I recently changed a 308 over to 22-250 using a barel that I bought for $125 shipped. It shoots my handloads under 1/2 MOA and it shoots Winchester white box almost as well.:D
     
  23. Nortonics

    Nortonics Member

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    Somebody got an old thread running again - from 2 years ago. Good stuff regardless...

    I ended up putting a Nikon Monarch UCC Long Range 6.5-20x44 AO with the fine crosshair reticle onto this gun with Burris Signature rings. Makes for a nice 50/50 split in cost - around $600 for the platform and $600 for the optics.

    Love it - easily shoots MOA all day...

    [​IMG]

    Here's a typical pattern:

    [​IMG]

    The graph is accurate - .25" minor graduations and 1" major graduations. These 5 shots comprise rounds 41 through 45 through the new barrel at that time. The lonely hole was the first shot after the previous cleaning. Loads were Hornady 95 grain SST with 31 grains of IMR 4064 for an approximate velocity of 2600 fps. Brass was hand preped new Winchester - full length sized, trimmed, flash hole and primer pocket uniformed - not neck turned or weighed though. Determined within a gnats ass my chamber OAL to the lands and loaded to within .015" of 'em.
     
  24. RugerOldArmy

    RugerOldArmy Member

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    Ya know, once you see the holes downrange, the Savage barrel-nut looks almost sexy! No complaints about Savage's accuracy from me either.
     
  25. equitytrader

    equitytrader member

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    Remington. The action is smoother and the trigger is a real adjustable trigger and not some marketing gimmick trying to put a silk hat on a pig, or in this case applying a fancy name to a stamped sheet metal sear trigger that is only adjustable for weight. Also, if this is for hunting I'd choose blued over stainless for light reflection and a tapered barrel over the heavy because I wouldn't want to carry that much weight afield all day.
     
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