Savage 12BVSS vs. Remington 700 VLS in Win .243

[equitytrader]

Master,

The picture I posted wasn't mine, I work at a gun dealer and I just grabbed one off the shelf - all Savage barrels I've seen have those tooling marks in the barrels, I picked a stainless barrel because I thought it would show the marks better than steel. Thanks for looking out though.

I've never tried that barrel break-in stuff and I'm not huge on using any brushes other than nylon in my rifles. Rifles are precision and I don't want to risk degrading anything. In fact, I'm so paranoid about it I won't use a metal rod in my .22 because I don't want to risk it, I use a 1/16" 3' pine dowel rod from Menards that cost $.16 and I use it to push patches through. Maybe I'm taking it too far. Also, I've never heard of a three-bullet kit for breaking in; seems like I would have after dealing in guns for so long.

 

[YodaVader]

I`ve checked and found no other evidence of "fouling". .

You've checked huh? So evidently my rifle is the one oddball that was produced. Betcha if I said it was my 700 doing the same then the replies would be: "Oh yeah , typical Remington hammer forged turd barrel!"

I drove over to have my Accu-Trigger trigger replaced at Sharp Shooter Supply , which is owned and operated by Fred Moreo , who is one of the most well known Savage riflesmiths in the country. I told Fred that my 12BVSS seemed to foul fast and he did not act surprised when I told him. He was not defensive on the subject at all like those here and Savage rifles are what allows him to make a living. At the time my rifle was fairly new and he gave me the impression that it would smooth out the more I shot it.

I`ve found that improper reloading or poor cleaning can attribute to a "fouled" barrel

Considering I use the same equipment , same bullets , powder , primers for my reloads in my Savage and Rem 700s and the only one with fouling issues is the Savage I would feel safe saying there is nothing improper with my reloads.

Also my cleaning methods do not contribute to fouling in my 700s.

The fouling issue with Savage is due to the rough machining in their rifling and lack of lapping - this is pretty easy to see with a clean rifle, you can see machining turn marks in the rifling.

Makes sense to me , I can look down the barrel of the 12BVSS after running a wet patch down the bore and see the rough areas where residue appears embedded. Doing the same with my 700 and the bore appears smooth all the way through.

What about the barrel conditioning kits? Aren`t these used alot by most pros to help keep their barrels in good condition and extend the life of the barrel?

I think most "pros" are using hand lapped match barrels from the start and when barrels start to lose competition accuracy they simply rebarrel with a new match barrel.

My next rifle will be definitely be a custom build - the 12BVSS would be the least expensive rifle to build on , to me , the greatest Savage advantage over any other make.

My 700LTR still remains , by far , the most consistently accurate factory rifle I have ever fired so I will not mess with a good thing.

I have a 700 SPS which was bought to be customized with a Krieger match barrel , still have not decided.

My next option is to build from a custom action. If I had to do it all over again instead of spending $1100 on the 12BVSS and 700SPS I would have just bought a custom action to build on.

Anyway , everyone has a right to their favorites - to the Savage guys more power to you. I have both Savage and Rem but had great luck with Remington so that is my favorite between the two.

 

[equitytrader]

Post a range report after you install that Krieger. Thanks in advance.

 

[RugerOldArmy]

... At the time my rifle was fairly new and he gave me the impression that it would smooth out the more I shot it. ...

You need to take his advice Yoda. Tell us how it works. (Respectable targets with that Remmy too. Wish I had been so blessed with my Remmy's. Down to one, but it's far from stock.)

I don't think Savage hand laps their barrels (how could they afford to), but their barrels do shoot well for factory barrels. My experience was similar (copper fouling), but 200ish rounds later it shot very, very well for a factory rifle. (Regular 1" groups at 300 yards with 69 SMKs and Varget or RL-15)

I believe Savage makes good quality barrels for the money. They just don't lap them like a custom barrel maker would, or fit tight chambers (for obvious reasons). It's probably the best decision they could make, skipping lapping, since they'll shoot in anyway and it keeps the costs competitive.

The LAST thing I'd do is use those grit-covered bullets... Just get the copper out between range sessions, it'll smooth out fine. I'd actually expect this from a Savage.

My Rem XR-100 in .22-250 had a glass smooth barrel, but it didn't shoot worth ... a hoot. I bedded it etc., but had to true it and replace the barrel with a Shilen before it shot well. Once I reached that point, I'd have been better off with a Savage. A pretty rifle that doesn't shoot well doesn't deserve space in my gunsafe. I think guns should be all about holes downrange.

My CZ's have all shot well, perhaps not as well as the the heavy barreled Savages (perhaps with one exception), but certianly not as well as my Savage with a Pac-Nor in 6mm BR.

One thing of note, my .270 Win pencil barrel Savage never copper fouled. (No complaints on accuracy either.) Go figure. Maybe it's just the Stainless Savage barrels...

 

[Auburn1992]

I voted Remington

 

[RugerOldArmy]

i still don't see the advantage of the 2-piece design, other than for cartridge changes. and really, how much of a difference does it make? i doubt, that even w/ the floating bolt head, that there is 100% lock up because that would mean the machining on the mating surfaces would have to be perfect, and i doubt that it is on any gun, much less on an economy gun.

Trolling! Ya already noted bolt-head swaps and better locking lug engagement. Sounds like you already knew two reasons for the design.

...One of my fellow F-Class competitors with a Savage had to quit during a match, due to that 2-piece bolt. He sheared the bolt head retaining pin. No thanks....

Gewehr's quote would be a better case against that design, and He's posted it many times. It's about the only such tale I heard. And we know Gewehr is steeped in the legend of 98K Mausers, .45-70's, and has a green streak (a 40X, 700 PSS etc.)....all kinda cool traditional dogma, ...the stuff of lore, dogma, and personal taste. I dunno if it is objective. I can tell Remington horror stories too. Remember the barrels that left the factory half-rifled? (Pretty stringent QC there!)

Savage doesn't have lore. But the 'Green crowd' tends to deny the value and innovation Savage has had.

I'm sure that a Savage isn't a Cooper or Kelby. But where is the old Remington quality? What new designs do they have (any right-bolt left port?...Nope we get the 710...) . Were is it's value offering, certianly not a $2.5K 40-X! (Ya could've had a Cooper or a used Panda!) And now big green puts camo on a Stag and calls it innovation. Tell me, what has Remington done/made of value lately? I think they're living off the name. Sad, but they may soon go the way of the dino...

But hey, owning both, and preferring Savage, I'm biased

 

[Master of Arms]

I found one kool thing about the Rems. They have an outstanding custom shop. If that helps ya any.

 

[skinewmexico]

Remington's innovation for the last few decades involves seeing what cheap for firearms people are buying, and buying that factory. The kings of re-badging.

 

[Master of Arms]

Mexico

I have zero experience with the barrel conditioning loads but I think that its a great concept.

 

[equitytrader]

Remington's innovation for the last few decades involves seeing what cheap for firearms people are buying, and buying that factory. The kings of re-badging.

Tell me about it! I saw this Remington .22 bolt today at work, it was new, as soon as I saw it I wondered if Remington bought the design from Kimber or just broke into the patent office. I can't remember the model off hand. It's also quite impressive that many Remingtons are coming straight from Zastava now (think Yugo SKS).

 

[YodaVader]

Post a range report after you install that Krieger. Thanks in advance.

Not a sure thing at this time. Even if I took the 700SPS in to him today it would be quite a while before he could get to it. But if I do have the work performed I sure will post results!

You need to take his advice Yoda. Tell us how it works. (Respectable targets with that Remmy too. Wish I had been so blessed with my Remmy's. Down to one, but it's far from stock.)

Yeah , Fred took a lot of time to talk to me after he performed the trigger install and adjustment. At the time the 12BVSS was fairly new so I did not ask too much about the fouling. He spoke highly of the Bushnell Elite 4200 series and I eventually bought one myself. He is really a wealth of knowledge. If I decide to customize the Savage it is lucky for me that he is relatively close!

Thanks for the compliments on the targets , those were from last year when I had a couple of my best range sessions as well as pretty ideal range conditions. Learning to utilize a Jewell benchrest trigger has done wonders for my groups as well as constantly striving to improve my bench technique. Switching to a target dot reticle in my Leupold made a remarkable improvement in group consistency as well.

Truth be told I believe my 12BVSS would do just as well with a "smooth" barrel. Its weight makes it very stable off the bench. Fred has some benchrest stocks that would make it even more so.

I don't think Savage hand laps their barrels (how could they afford to), but their barrels do shoot well for factory barrels. My experience was similar (copper fouling), but 200ish rounds later it shot very, very well for a factory rifle.(Regular 1" groups at 300 yards with 69 SMKs and Varget or RL-15)

I totally agree , the expense would be too great. The 12BVSS has about 325 rounds at this point. I'll give it a "super cleaning" before the next range session and see what happens. I may eventually mount the 6X-24X Elite 4200 target dot on it too.

Very impressive shooting for 300 yards!!! I would be very pleased to say the least! The 69 MKs and the 55 Berger are what was used in the targets I fired.

 

[Master of Arms]

I`ve never had a problem with any barrel "FOULING" in any of my rifles or pistols. This may be because I clean them after EVERY time I shoot them and I always use a copper solvent along with other solvents.

 

[Vic303]

The link on the Savage does not offer it in .243Win.
The Rem 700 comes with the Monte Carlo cheekpiece to enhance your view thru your optics. The Savage might have a better trigger out of box, but not by much, plus most competent gunsmiths are far more familiar with a Remmy trigger than a Savage.

The Remmy has a coupon rebate: 2008 "Rebate Roundup"

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I pick the Rem 700.

 

[Master of Arms]

The Savage might have a better trigger out of box, but not by much,

Sorry to drag this on but I can`t understand why you`d think that the savage trigger isn`t a great trigger.
Far superior to anything that Remington, Winchestor, Marlin, even most Ruger triggers, out of the box. Most any trigger can be upgraded so of course after a tweek other triggers can be better but not out of the box.
As I`ve stated earlier, hate`m if you want to but Savage Arms is growing to be and has grown to be one of the better rifles on the market. I would imagine that if not, the use of them would not be utilized as much in matches all over the country. I personally can hardly wait to get my Savage Model 12. I`ve been researching rifles in the tArget class and I can`t find a better rifle with better reviews in the Savage 12 class or the Savage 12 $$$$ class so I guess to each his own.

 

[equitytrader]

Far superior to anything that Remington, Winchestor, Marlin, even most Ruger triggers, out of the box.

I don't mean to be mean, but if you believe this it's obvious you don't have any experience with quality rifles and most likely don't know the difference. Savage's marketing has worked wonders for them, that's great - it certainly doesn't mean they have the quality that novices believe.

The fact is that the trigger is poorly constructed sheet metal with a cheese weight adjustment system where a spring turns inside a housing. The sheet metal sear was obviously unreliable (if you close a Savage bolt hard enough the sear will let go and decock the rifle) so they installed that gimmick safety to lessen liability. Weight, and most will agree, is the elast important of three adjustments on a trigger: creep, overtravel and weight. Without being able to adjust creep or overtravel it's an entry level rifle.

As far as their barrels go they're nothing special, we've determined that. They're mass produced and are full of step skipping in that effort.

You like them and want to defend them no matter what for whatever reason and try to pass them off as the best - great. They are not high-quality, they're one of the cheapest rifle makers around today with one of the best marketing teams.

 

[skinewmexico]

They are not high-quality, they're one of the cheapest rifle makers around today with one of the best marketing teams.

Guess that explains why Remington is offering a rebate to get people to buy.

Let's compare apples to apples. Compare a gunsmith enhanced Remington trigger to an aftermarket Savage trigger. Roughly the same money.

 

[RugerOldArmy]

I like Savages because they shoot well and the barrel-nut and bolt design allow me to do caliber conversions and barrel swaps. I love that I can adjust headspace without a lathe. You can do a lot with these rifles.

I'm in between both sides on the accutrigger. It's a decent trigger in either the target accuutrigger or the regular accutrigger. For a hunting gun the regular accutrigger is a very workable piece of engineering. I left the standard accutrigger on my .270, for now. I have another Savage (LBRP version of the 12 LRPV) that I swap barrels for target and prarie dog shooting and put the SAV-2 Rifle Basix trigger on. I much prefer that to the accutrigger for a target gun. The SSS triggers are also nice Savage aftermarket triggers.

Remington's 40X trigger is a decent, workable target trigger, but it is nowhere near the Jewel trigger quality. The standard BDL triggers weren't that impressive to me.

To me, hands down, the best factory triggers are the CZ single set triggers in the 527(s) and the 550(s) (perhaps the 453, I have a 452 with a Brooks trigger kit in it that is superb, but it is not a single set trigger.). You can adjust these triggers so even the unset mode is a glass-rod-break 2 or 3 lbs (preference) and the set mode is a crisp break at 6-8 Oz. (Adjust screw B first when adjusting these...).

YMMV some folks prefer two-stage, some one stage, some like single or double-set triggers, and some dislike set triggers. Everybody seems to like a Jewel.

I think the biggest hangup most folks have with the accutrigger is not necessarily how it performs, but agree the stamped metal and glock-ish mechanism is a turn off, regardless of how well it functions.

But, hey, that's just my opinion.

 

[Master of Arms]

Equitytrader, you keep saying that I don`t have any experience, you`re very wrong. It`s ok though because I don`t have to explain myself to you. I base my opinion on facts not because I own one. Facts. Marketing campaign????? What does that have to do with anything? You`ve trashed Savage on more than one occasion when it was compared to Remington or Ruger so I`m guessing that you own each of them. If you haven`t noticed, you`re in the minority and might I add by a wide margin. You said that

we've determined that

about the barrels, who`s we?? Yeah, there`s a few that stated their opinion nicely and moved on. You on the other hand like to consider yourself an expert on the subject and talk down to any that disagree with you. Well here`s some news, you are wrong. How`s that? I don`t do the name calling thing but I must admit that your comments are almost Troll-like so I`d suggest that you stick to your opinion on these matters and leave it at that. Marketing???? Thats funny. I`ve found several matches that were won by a Savage and there are two guys that just won a few nationals with Savages that a viewed on the television. I`ve been searching for them online but that search is cluttered with hundreds of matches and I`m no good with names. It also won Best of the Best in 2006 and 2 different mags. rated it A#1 in 2007. So I beg to differ with your bias opinion. I`m done here so fire away. There are much more interesting topics to read so I`ll move on. Have a nice day.

 

[RugerOldArmy]

I don't mean to be mean, but if you believe this it's obvious you don't have any experience with quality rifles and most likely don't know the difference. Savage's marketing has worked wonders for them, that's great - it certainly doesn't mean they have the quality that novices believe.

The fact is that the trigger is poorly constructed sheet metal with a cheese weight adjustment system where a spring turns inside a housing. The sheet metal sear was obviously unreliable (if you close a Savage bolt hard enough the sear will let go and decock the rifle) so they installed that gimmick safety to lessen liability. Weight, and most will agree, is the elast important of three adjustments on a trigger: creep, overtravel and weight. Without being able to adjust creep or overtravel it's an entry level rifle.

As far as their barrels go they're nothing special, we've determined that. They're mass produced and are full of step skipping in that effort.

You like them and want to defend them no matter what for whatever reason and try to pass them off as the best - great. They are not high-quality, they're one of the cheapest rifle makers around today with one of the best marketing teams.

I disagree with a lot of this.

- The trigger engineering summary pretty flawed and inaccurate. (But yes there is a stamped sear...most would prefer hardened machined forgings, but for the purpose and price point...)

- What has been determined in regard to the barrels? In comparison to what? I'd take a factory Savage barrel over Remington in a heartbeat. Yet neither is a Hart, Shilen, Kreiger, Pac-Nor....

It seems pretty biased. If you look at a Savage and a Remington, it's probably going to take $300-350 to make the Savage a superior shooter...you screw on an aftermarket barrel...in your Garage in 15 minutes.

I look at a Remington, and all I see is raw materials. Perhaps you save the stock. The action is of the greatest value, but with the solid bolt design as opposed to the floating bolt head, you've got to true it, sleeve it, lap the lugs, and probably (for a lot of Remmy's I've seen...) bush the firing pin. Then you need the $250 for a good blank, and a reamer (more $, but nice to have). A gunsmith has to ream the chamber, thread the barrel, headspace etc. For all this, you'd have been better off with a custom action from Stiller/Bat/Stole/Surgeon etc. But you can do it...it'll just cost you more, and you'll need a gunsmith or skills and a lathe.

Been There, done that. I've had money-pit Remingtons. Won't do it again.

 

[Inspector3711]

Remington without hesitation. They have a new trigger design that is sweet. I fired one last weekend at the range and even though my 700 LVSF is adjusted to 3 lbs and has almost all the creep taken out, this new trigger was something else entirely. They say it breaks like glass... It's all true. The guy that let me shoot it is a Savage fanatic but he got a deal on a 700 in .338 magnum. I asked him what he thought and he said the Remington trigger was every bit as good with both actions fresh out of the box in his opinion. It was buttery smooth compared to my 3 year old LVSF. Remington makes a great factory bolt action. Lap the lugs? Have it trued? I dunno about all that. My LVSF will shoot 1/2" 100 yard 5 shot groups and all I've done is adjust the trigger. How accurate do you need to be?

I like the way the Remington looks too... Something about that barrel nut on the Savage and Marlin just doesn't appeal to me. I know the system works and I fully understand why but the look of a rifle without it is more appealing to me personally. I wish Savage had found a way to engineer around the way it looks. Maybe they will in the future.

And hey... Why would you buy a rifle just because of the trigger anyway?

 

[RugerOldArmy]

Lap the lugs? Have it trued? I dunno about all that. My LVSF will shoot 1/2" 100 yard 5 shot groups and all I've done is adjust the trigger. How accurate do you need to be?

How far you want to go is personal taste.

I got into that comparison based on what it seems to take in local BR to shoot .2s and .3s regularly. Factory barrels don't do it. The Savages seem to do it with a barrel swap. The Remmy's all pretty much been through action truing when the barrel needs to get headspaced on the shoulder.

Neither the Savages or the Remmy's seem to shoot as well as the Stolle/Stiller/Bat/Nesika customs.

 

[equitytrader]

I don't own a Savage, Remington or a Ruger. Like I said in one of my first posts, Remington was the lesser or two evils. 'We determined that' was from all the other more experienced people talking about Savage's lack of lapping and wide barrel tolerances.

If you think the Savage is a high end rifle and every bit as good as a Cooper or any other real high end rifle more power to you. You obviously know exactly what you're talking about.

 

[Ash]

The barrel nut is something that does not have to be used. The Savage action is certainly capable of accepting a barrel with a standard shoulder (just as the Mossberg and Marlins can). The converse can also be true, the Remington can be assembled, if you want, with a barrel locked with a nut (though stock inletting would be required).

In the end, Savage must have been onto something in the 1940's when they built the Stevens/Savage 340's for the first time with a barrel nut. Marlin and Mossberg have now copied it, and I would not be surprised to see others do it in the future.

However, it is not mandatory to use the barrel-nut. Of course, the draw in the design is that nut, and I can say it is very easy to change the barrel on a Savage. I changed my 30-06 to a 270 very easily.

Ash

 

[skinewmexico]

So why do people always talk about Savages not being lapped? Is there a factory Remington that comes lapped? Any factory, and I mean mass produced factory, not a Cooper?

 

[equitytrader]

See Zee.