Savage 1907 in 380 - Striker Follow

[Johnm1]

I've owned this pistol for 5 years now. From day one of my ownership it has had 'Striker Follow'. Would be hammer follow but this is a striker fired pistol. I do own a 1907 in 32 ACP that functions normally. So I have a pistol I can view for normal function and parts placement. After cleaning 5 years ago, this project went back into the drawer. I have reacquainted myself with the function and disassembly of all but the breach bolt. I have avoided taking it apart because I can see it will take more than 2 hands to reassemble it. I am detail cleaning it right now but have done as much troubleshooting as I can think of and come up with the problem being in the fire control located in the breach bolt. Here are the troubleshooting steps I have taken that lead me to believe the breach bolt will need to come apart for complete cleaning and parts inspection.

- When cycled slowly the striker will remain cocked
- When cycled vigorously the striker will follow the slide forward. I cannot determine if the striker follows on the initial movement forward or if it waits for the abrupt stop when the slide reaches the forward most position. The motion is too fast for my eyes to register either way.
- I removed the trigger and sear trip and can replicate the striker follow manually
- I then removed the barrel/recoil spring and can replicate the striker follow manually
- oddly, I can install the 32 ACP breach bolt in the 380 and the striker follow is still there. This doesn't make any sense but it is what I observed. I cannot install the 380 breach bolt in the 32 gun. It apparently would need to be fitted though the parts appear to be interchangeable. I am not going to do that.
- the actual Sears look physically different between the 32 and the 380 dispite both being manufactured in 1913 and should be the same engineering revision. No one can account for what parts have been replaced in the last 107 years though.
- I have been staring at both firearms and have performed several other tests to see if I could better define what the problem is. But the above tests show both the supporting and contradicting observations for disassembly of the breach bolt.

Up until I tested the 32 breach bolt in the 380 I was certain that the problem resided within the 380 breach bolt. But when the 32 breach also followed it directs my attention to the cocking indicator tail that actually cocks the firearm. But I have operated the cocking piece (hammer looking piece) on both breach bolts and they both reach a point where the sear engages the top of the firing pin and although both cocking piece tails can can travel further 'upwards` neither changes the final engagement of the sear to them firing pin. I cannot push the striker/cocking piece forward with my hands no matter how the cocking piece was cocked (manually out of the gun or mechanicall by the gun in normal operation. Now, could it be that the striker follow using the 32 breach bolt in the 380 pistol is just a coincidence and related to final fit of pieces in each particular firearm? I dont know but there is no striker follow when using the 32 breach bolt in the 32 firearm. *

The first question is if I should endeavor to disassemble the 380 breach bolt for final cleaning and parts inspection? There is a level of commitment once the breach bolt is disassembled. I'm willing to commit to it as long as it makes sense and I haven't left something else untested before I do.

The next question would be if anyone has experience taking a breach bolt apart.

The above really assumes that the respondent(s) are familiar with the firearm and how it works. It doesn't work like most would think. Below are some resources if you are so inclined to learn something new or need to see how it actually works. The C&Arsenal function video is really great. I have added some pictures for a general view of the parts in question.

Numrich parts diagram https://www.gunpartscorp.com/gun-manufacturer/savstevspgfld/auto-pistols-sav/1907



380 breach bolt on left. Notice the difference between Sears and the 'nun's on the bottom of the cocking piece tail (bottom)



This image shows how the sear trip/trigger assembly works and is a general arrangement of the parts without the barrel/recoil spring/slide attached. This picture helps understand the function video quite well



General arrangement.


* I reread my post 5 years ago on TFL and apparently the 32 did once have a striker follow that resulted in a round going downrange when the bolt closed. I cannot replicate it today though. I dont know if I had cleaned that pistol after that or not.

 

[Johnm1]

I apologize. I forgot to include a link to the C&Rsenal video on the guns function.

 

[Johnm1]

Here is a simpler diagram with integral parts list.

FROM http://www.vintagepistols.com/1907/exploded.html







This one doesn't show the trigger bar that connects the trigger to the safety. I do not believe it makes a difference to the question at hand.

 

[Johnm1]

I picked this up on a related post about the 1907 extractor where someone added a weakness of the design. Now, I have no way to determine if this is true, but it is leading me to the decision to take the bolt apart for parts inspection.

from: https://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=95308

"These are fine pistols. The only weakness I have seen is that the machined pivot for the sear can wear, changing the sear position and causing hammer follow. The area that wears is the pivot area of the bolt rather than the sear pivot area. The fix is to replace the bolt. Sorry for the ramble but I thought other Savage owners might like to know, in case they have this problem."

 

[Johnm1]

I did a little research on the comment about the sear pivot. Basically I stared at the part to try and understand how it works and if I could figure out where the wear in the sear pivot could be. Well, the sear doesn't have a pin that it pivots on but it does have a curved surface on the bottom/bolt side that could be a surface it pivots/rotates on. As it is, I can't even figure out how the sear is held in place. I'm assuming there is some type of interface with the firing pin that helps hold it in place. Here are some pictures of the sear and my bolt.



A different type of sear.



Here is a picture of the sear from above



Here is a picture of the sear from the side in the 'unfired' position



The same picture but now with the sear in the fired position. My left thumb has pushed/tripped the sear and you can see the top of the sear is now 'higher' above the bolt body.



In the last picture above my left thumb you can see a hole in the bolt body. It looks like there should be a pin in that hole but there isn't. If there were a pin in that hole and you watch the sear as it is tripped, it looks like the sear would 'pivot' around the pin that isn't there. I still don't know why the hole in the bolt body is there. There isn't a corresponding hole in the sear for a pin to travel through the bolt body and into the sear. Unless there is another type of sear that I have not found a picture of on the internet.

it is my understanding that the firing pin spring is about 2" long and compresses to about 1" long for installation. All the while you have to line up the cocking piece and bolt body so the cocking piece pivot pin is installed and the firing pin attachment pin to the cocking piece and when your done with that somehow you are supposed to install the firing pin retainer. It sounds like a four or more hand operation that requires compressing of a stiff spring to 50% compression while installing two separate pins through the bolt body.

This is why I don't want to disassemble the bolt body unless I have to. I suspect some of my questions would be answered if I did disassemble the bolt. But it doesn't help me to understand how the bolt works if I can't get it back together again.

 

[Johnm1]

Well, I bit the bullet and removed the firing pin retainer in an attempt to take the breach bolt apart. Unfortuantely the cocking piece pivot pin isn't moving. I soaked it and now it is in the freezer. Hopefully it is just a matter of time before I have it apart. Whether I can put it back together again is another question.

It has been suggested that the sear surface may be the issue and on the surface that would appear to be the most likely culprit. But my gut thinks otherwise. Whether the breach block is installed or out of the firearm, the sear seems to hold at least as well as my 32 version. I have tested with a 2 pound rubber mallet on the front, back, and sides of the firearm or a hand held breach block. In all cases the sear stays 'un-tripped' in all positions except from directly behind. It will trip with a sharp blow from the rear. But that is also true of the 32 caliber firearm/breach bolt that I have. Also, it seems to me from the way the sear engages the firing pin, that a blow from the front would release a worn sear surface, not from behind.

None of this is logical in the scientific sense. Hopefully the breach bolt will come apart tonight and I can learn something and figure a way around the issue. I'll keep this post updated.

 

[Blue68f100]

Do you have a Ultrasonic cleaner you can submerge it in? If so fill it up with Kroil or ATF/Acetone and let the sound do the work. If things are rusted or stuck this should help penetrate the non accessible areas. It may take a few days but this has worked for me. My US cleaners holds about 1.5 gal of solution so it will handle most all handguns.

 

[Johnm1]

I do have an ultrasonic cleaner. That is a great idea and I'll do that when I get home tonight. That pin isn't moving a bit and I don't want to peen the end, so I'm not hitting it with a lot of force.

Thanks!

 

[Johnm1]

Stroke of luck today. I visited a gun shop in Tucson that I had not been to before. Frontier guns. He doesn't sell new guns. Doesn't even have a distributor to order from. He just deals in older firearms and what he gets in on trade. Great selection of really neat old stuff. He has a bookshelf that I spent some time thumbing through. Lo and behold there was a copy of " Firearms assembly II, the NRA guidebook to handguns" and there is a section on the Savage 1910 including disassembly of the breach block.

The pin is still soaking in Kroil. I'll be traveling around tomorrow so I won't be able to work on it again until Sunday. Ill use the ultra sonic cleaner. The instructions didn't have any surprises in it. It provided a sequence and a series of steps. Like most, it didn't offer any reinstallation instructions. Not even the statement to reassemble in reverse. So I guess I don't know everything yet, but at least I know the steps to take it apart and the reassembly should be fairly close. And now I know how the Sear is held in place. My assumption that the firing pin helped hold it in place appears to be correct.

 

[Monac]

Johnm1, I am not mechanically talented enough to even follow your posts very well. I do know that the Savage pistol firing mechanism is considered delicate and prone to double-firing or going full auto if worn. I would suggest getting a copy of "Troubleshooting Your Handgun", by J. B. Wood. It was published around 1980, but can still be found at reasonable prices. It may point out just where the problem occurs. There may be other old books on pistolsmithing that would be useful, but I don't know what they are.

It is a pity that JimK has died, because this is exactly the kind of thing he knew a lot about. If you search for posts about Savage pistols here, I would pay particular attention to his. He posted on other firearms forums as well.

 

[Johnm1]

Thanks Monac. I'm always in search up books on Old firearms . They are often very expensive but I try.

I'm a project engineer for a construction company building Water and Waste Water facilities. I deal in very technical issues with equipment that initially I have no understanding of. When problems occur it is often my job to describe the issue for two audiences. Those like me who are not familiar with the equipment and those that manufacure and/or sell the equipment. So, technical writing is a very important part of my job and has been for 40 years. Today's technology allows us to show things much better using pictures and video. But like any problem, determining and describing what the problem is, is the first challange.

I am disappointed that I haven't written/demonstrated the issue well enough for you to follow. That could be because you don't have the level of interest in this particular subject and the investment in time to understand it is too great. And that is fair. But, I suspect my technical writing skills are deficient. People like jimk had first hand knowledge of these things and it was easy to describe things close enough for him to understand. He would often politely correct bad assumptions and make the discussion so much easier. Our hobby has lost so much knowledge in the last 10 years.

Keep in mind that whatever I have written makes 100% sense to me as a writer and my audience is not only those that have technical knowledge but includes those that don't because one day that is all we will have.

If anyone is so inclined, I would accept willingly any critiques you may have on my skill, or lack of skill, in technical writing. That would be best accomplished through a private message. Depending on how many comments I get, I may or may not respond to each one. Even if you are not following the issue closely, if there is a sentence or paragraph that you just can't understand I would appreciate hearing about it. I feel it is my responsibility to write precisely enough that the uninvolved can understand it. And if I haven't accomplished that I'd like to know how and where. You don't have to offer a way to fix my problem, just that there is a problem. Be nice, but I'd appreciate the feedback.

Now, if we lived in Hollywood I would just bring up the NCIS 3D holographic model of the Savage 1907 that showed not only all of the parts in motion but would highlight / describe how the forces in the fire control unit are applied and to what surfaces. Unfortunately, we live in the real world, and that doesn't exist. Come to think of it, that would be one way to preserve the knowledge of these older firearms. The cost would be astronomical of course.

Thanks all.

 

[Monac]

Oh, it isn't your fault, Johm1. I got up very early today and am in no shape to follow anything detailed. (At times like this, spellcheck is a godsend.)

Also, I am primarily a gun collector. I shoot my guns and field strip them but I never detail strip anything, because the odds are I could not get it back together. Right now I think I have at least two guns in pieces in cigar boxes.... (BTW, if you are ever near Waukegan, IL, the Smoke N' Gun Shop there sells cigar boxes for very reasonable prices. I find them handy for storing my failures.)

If you search for Troubleshooting Your Handgun on Ebay, you can find a couple of copies in the $8.00 - $8.50 range, and some others that cost more and might be in nicer condition. I got my copy a long time ago, and think very highly of it in terms of explaining how certain guns work, what their weak points are, and how some of them can be repaired. I do not have my copy here at the computer, but I am sure it covers the Savage, and so it might be helpful.

 

[Johnm1]

Car troubles and a plan to test all of my 22's with a new ammo slowed my progress on the stuck cocking piece pivot pin. But I did get it out. Ultra sonic cleaning probably didn't help though. The pin was just in very tight. I had to resort to multiple very heavy blows with 2 lb rubber mallet to remove the pin. There was no sign of corrosion on the pin. I will take pictures in the next few days. It appears that the pin was designed to be a very tight fit.

My question is why?

If the pin were a looser fit, it could be held in place by the tension of the firing pin spring. But I'd guess that the pin was frozen for installation. And I bet I'll have to freeze it for reinstallation.

One thing to consider is that if this pin were to 'wander' in either direction it would lock up the action. So that seems to be a viable reason for such a tight fit. But I would like to hear what our gunsmith members think is the reason for such a tight fitting pin.