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Savage Accuracy fact or myth?

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by dubbleA, Jan 17, 2013.

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  1. Bushpilot

    Bushpilot Member

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    Savage bolt rifles are usually accurate but I think that the reputation has grown a little beyond the reality and has become somewhat of an internet myth. The Savage 110 style action was designed back in the 50’s and has been around for a long time. If its accuracy potential was superior to everything else it wouldn’t have taken this long to be recognized as such. As jmr40 already pointed out, the way that they are designed requires much less precision during assembly and is much more forgiving. They aren’t inherently any more accurate than other designs, just easier to assemble and properly headspace. While potentially no more accurate than other rifles, being easier to assemble, the Savages may be slightly less likely to be found noticeably inaccurate. I also agree with those that mentioned the Savage was really designed as a budget rifle. But, many people forget that the Remington 721/700 was also designed as a budget rifle that was cheaper to manufacture than a model 70, but also incorporated some strength and accuracy enhancing improvements in its design, so I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing. I also side with those that consider the Savage to be some what (sorry) ugly. The barrel nut, which makes the Savage so easy to assemble is part the reason. Also not helping in appearance and in keeping with the whole budget idea concept, Savage doesn't mill off the excess material in the receiver, especially at the rear. This makes the action a bit bulky. Another problem with the receivers is that they are too long, due to, in part I believe, the floating bolt face. This length adds even more weight, reduces stiffness, makes for a long bolt travel and worse of all, limits scope mounting as far as tube length and eye relief are concerned. I also don’t believe the Savage lock time is as fast as the Remington and others but that is just an educated guess on my part. The Savage bolt rifles are good and represented a great value in the past when they were priced as budget guns. Now however, they are priced up there with everything else and that makes me question whether the buyer is really getting their money’s worth. Just for the record, I'd also like to say that I think by far the best, highest quality, most innovative rifle Savage ever made was the 99.
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2013
  2. Hangingrock

    Hangingrock Member

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    I firmly believe that a certain percentage of firearms consumer’s don’t have a grasp on the economics of manufacturing. Cost-effective/innovative engineering and manufacture appear to be frowned upon. Robert Greenleaf wrote extremely interesting articles on firearms designs in particularly related to Savage of whom he was employed.
     
  3. Tempest 455

    Tempest 455 Member

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    I never shot my gun at 100 yards w/ good ammo for groups. How about from 400 yards?

    This is a 2.25" group (just over.5 MOA) using box ammo. Black Hills 168g. No benchrest, this was off a bipod.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  4. dubbleA

    dubbleA Member

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    No, that doesnt count. Sorry,that's a example of a cherry picked group.
    Here are the requirements again.



    Simply this post is about consistant accuracy with a Savage CF rifle. Something that can be repeated. To this point I havent seen any pictures showing this other than my own. I have only read "yeah my Savage is the most accurate gun I own", "no Savage isnt better than any other", etc. This leaves me thinking?


    I see claims that are hard to believe, they would give benchrest/target shooters a run for their money with a factory sporter.
    Some think that getting a 3 shot single hole group is the schnizzle and call their rifle a 1/2 moa shooter.
    Some shoot a few small groups and dont include the bad ones and then they claim they can "shoot sub moa all day long".


    Been shooting a long time, been there and done that with most anything rifle related and know it's certainly easier said that than done. Although the quality of firearms manufacturing is high and accuracy is probablly better than ever today I believe Savage doesnt offer anything in the accuracy department thant other makes dont offer. Nothing magical about them at all, it still takes a shooter and ammo to complete the equation.


    Now lets back to the OP.
    A picture of 3 or more 5 shot groups with a factory Savage centerfire rifle at 100yds on the same target face. I know there are shooter/rifle combinations that can do this out there.

    Please post yout results here...
     
  5. Wolfsbane

    Wolfsbane Member

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    Have you ever thought about getting a sense of humor? I know it's surprising to those who don't have one. But many of us do and it adds immeasurably to one's quality of life.

    The medical profession is truly doing incredible things with transplants nowadays. Many people generously choose to be a donor, so it's likely they'll be able to find one for you among them many accident victims there are each year.

    I'm sure everyone who watches you floundering around without one is greatly saddened by it. I have no doubt they'd probably be more than willing to chip in to help you defray the cost, if that's the issue.

    A life without the joys of a sense of humor is indeed a terrible thing to have to experience. So hang in there. I'm sure a donated sense of humor will become available for you shortly. I think I can speak for everyone here at the High Road, when I say we're all rooting for you.


     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2013
  6. Bushpilot

    Bushpilot Member

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    At the risk of posting yet another post that doesn’t fit your strict guidelines I’ll just mention that; I don't happen to be one who takes a picture of every interesting group I’ve ever shot, broken down by rifle type and I'm sure that there are many others out there like myself. I might on occasion make a few notes, especially if I’m shooting reloads. I also don't believe that every picture I see of a nice group is necessarily shot under the exact conditions that that are reported. There are a few “fish” stories here and there... We can all find the necessary “facts” to support our opinions (beliefs) and another picture of a tight group or two doesn’t really prove anything one way or the other… When it comes right down to it that’s what these boards are all about anyway, opinion, hopefully backed up by a little actual experience. If you’re not satisfied with hearing opinions and want more credible evidence then you’re better off collecting it yourself and drawing your own conclusions. Or, you could simply be gracious enough to accept and acknowledge the contributions and opinions that were offered and take them for what they are worth.
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2013
  7. Cee Zee

    Cee Zee member

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    Personally I don't need the approval of anyone on the net for my opinions. I base them in the facts I see. I "know" what my Savage will do. And every rifle has a bad group from time to time so there's such a thing as cherry picking the bad groups too. I know what others report about their Savages and it is right in line with what I say about mine. And yes there are Savages shooting .2 MOA groups too so I don't see a big advantage in a super expensive rifle unless I want to win a world title and even then Savages make it possible to win with off the shelf rifles shooting against custom rifles. People always want to ignore that for some reason.
     
  8. Bushpilot

    Bushpilot Member

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    Who said that you needed anyone’s approval? But, if you’re not here to hear other people’s opinions as well as to sharing your own, then what are you here for?

    No, truly accurate rifles don’t have “bad groups from time to time.” Shooters have bad groups on occasion but if rifles regularly produce uncalled flyers or “bad groups from time to time” with good ammo then they are not really accurate rifles.

    I didn’t think you cared about what others said in determining your opinions? You certainly don’t speak for all Savage owners. I’m definitely familiar enough with Savages to know what they are capable of and while generally good shooters there isn’t anything miraculous about them.
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2013
  9. cmb3366

    cmb3366 Member

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    The real difference between a high end custom, and a factory rifle like a Savage is consistency. It's been my experience that off the bench, most people underestimate what they are capable of, and make a lot of excuses for their equipment along the lines of 'I must have pulled that shot', 'wind got that one', and otherwise to explain and rationalize why the ultra small groups are a relatively rare occurrence. What you are really seeing in the bad groups, and the pulled shots, is that the rifle aggs somewhere in the middle between your worst and best groups. This is to say, the rifle is unable consistently able to replicate your best results, and averages toward much more mediocre results than those we like to throw around on gun boards.

    This is not to say that wind and shooter form are not players in overall accuracy, as we all know they are, but my experience shows me that many shooters who have not spent time with a really consistently accurate rifle overestimate their effects as a way of rationalizing why they can't reproduce those occasional excellent groups on every range trip or on every target.

    One of the wonders of a good custom BR gun, at least in my experience, is that with a little coaching about the trigger and using a joystick rest, people I have offered the chance to try my rifle can send rounds into ragged little holes over and over so long as I keep feeding them ammo. They always seem surprised they they were capable of such accuracy, as they previously considered themselves the weak link in their own setup.
     
  10. Cee Zee

    Cee Zee member

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    Any rifle locked into a rest is going to shoot more consistent than a sandbag rested gun. That's just a given. That's why I think the shooters in F/TR are such a good indication of what is really the rifle and what is really the shooter. Those guys are accomplished shooters. They must be to shoot the way they shoot at 1000 yards. When you take the expensive rests out of the equation I think you see the true difference in the rifles. And Savage has been burning up the F/TR tour shooting against custom rifles. The reason that doesn't happen in BR shooting is because of the rests. Shooters must use a bipod in F/TR. It takes the elaborate rest out of the picture and shows you what the actual rifle will do.

    And again, ONLY Savage competes in F/TR with stock rifles. They also compete in F Class but more lax rules make it possible for the custom rifles to do better. Still Savage does have a significant presence in F Class and they do win if not as often as they do in F/TR.

    I just can't help but think that if Sako and Tikka were such great shooters compared to a Savage that someone would be doing well with one in F/TR. But they aren't. Until someone gives me a good explanation as to why I will continue to believe that Savages shoot better than those other rifles. Surely those companies realize the value in having a stock rifle, like Savage does, compete and win in those shooting classes. I know it sells rifles for Savage because it caused me to buy one. I had my choice. I picked Savage because of this very point.

    I think we need to review this one more time just so all the details are pointed out. Savage rifles that come right out of the box (and they cost under $1500 for the rifle and sometimes a good bit less) WIN in 1000 yard competitions against custom built rifles. Those would be the same rifles people build for BR shooting but without the elaborate and expensive rests. So it's rifle against rifle because the fact is there are several members of Team Savage that compete and win with Savage rifles. It's not just about one great shooter. It's a team and that means they have several good shooters. And Savage didn't put this team together. They got together themselves. Savage jumped on the bandwagon and sponsored them but they had already been winning before that happened.

    So we have $1500 Savage rifles (or cheaper) competing with $4000-$5000 custom built rifles and the Savages win as often as not. And no other rifle factories have rifles that are competitive in the sport. If that doesn't tell us something I don't know what ever could. Savage accuracy is real and documented. Unless I see where some other rifle company is doing as well or better I'll continue to believe that Savage makes some of the best rifles on earth and that includes being compared to custom built rifles. I just don't know how anyone could ever argue otherwise without claiming the whle thing is a hoax and there's a mountain of evidence that it isn't a hoax.

    Show me a Sako or a Tikka that can do that and then we'll talk. Sure we aren't talking hunting rifles but that wasn't the OP's question.

    When I see something funny I will laugh, trust me. What I don't see as funny is middle school humor. I don't want to insult you either so I'll try to be gentle. Beavis and Butthead never impressed me much.
     
  11. Bushpilot

    Bushpilot Member

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    The F/TR class is much more a test of the Shooter and his ability to judge the wind than a test of the rifle. But here we are talking about comparing the rifles, not the shooters. Any rifle capable of consistent .5 MOA is theoretically capable of shooting in the X ring in F/TR and being competitive. This requires a good shooting rifle but it isn’t all that uncommon. I’ve had numerous ordinary Remington 700 Varmint Specials 20 years ago that would do that consistently and weighed much less than the 18.5 weight limit of the F/TR rifles. The reason there are so many Savages competing is because they are comparatively inexpensive, have decent triggers, are accurate enough and some models already come with the 30 inch barrels that squeeze all the velocity possible out of the .223 and .308 for the long range and the wind.

    No, just the opposite. The reason Savage isn't a big winner in Bench Rest is because BR rifles are accurate enough to bring out the inherent weaknesses in the Savage action. The "elaborate rest" actually takes the shooter more out of the picture and shows what the rifle will do.
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2013
  12. Cee Zee

    Cee Zee member

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    Not all F/TR shooting is done at 1000 yards. Some of it is at 600 yards, which makes reading the wind much less of a factor. Savage excels at those distances too. And a group of shooters will either all have to be exceptional to set the team records Team Savage is setting or they must be using superior equipment. I just don't think Team Savage managed to find a group of guys so above the level of others that they could take a stock rifle and win with it if that rifle wasn't at least as good as the competitions rifles or better (and that includes mostly custom built rifles in their competition). The thing is one guy proved that it was possible to win with stock Savage rifles and others came behind him. Sure they wanted to save money but that doesn't mean they could do it without a great rifle. And from what I hear around here people "think" other similarly priced rifles shoot better than Savages. Yet no one is winning with those rifles. You'd think at least one shooter would be using those Tikkas, Weatherbys and Sakos to win. After all they are close to the same price as the Savages. So why aren't they competiting?

    I don't think anyone would argue that there were Remingtons that could do well against the competition that was around 20 years ago but the groups have gotten much more tight since then and those were not stock Remingtons. Big difference. I've shot lots of stock Remingtons and they don't even come close to the stock Savage I own and from what I can tell there are lots of other Savages around that are as good or better than mine. But to compare a rifle from 20 years ago to now is a stretch IMO. Then there's the fact that the Savages are setting records for accuracy in those categories. Obviously they are shooting better than those Remingtons did if they are setting records. And people could buy a BB gun to try to compete because it's cheap too. That doesn't mean they will be able to. Other rifles are just as cheap as the Savages. In fact some of those Remington actions can be bought cheaper than the Savage actions. Why aren't people using those to save money and still winning?
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2013
  13. Bushpilot

    Bushpilot Member

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    You admittedly read Savage’s marketing. Then, you bought the rifle, you’re invested. Now is the time to wave your Savage flag... Wave away… The F/TR class you keep regurgitating is much more about the shooter than the rifle, but wave away… This is obviously at a dead end..
     
  14. Hokkmike

    Hokkmike Member

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    Generally speaking you get what you pay for. I have been shooting a loooooonnng time and have always considered Savage an entry level rifle. Maybe times have changed.

    I think there is a lot that can be done with very basic equipment to improve marksmanship. This is good to see.

    My brother has always shot a Savage and seems very happy with it.
     
  15. hueyville

    hueyville Member

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    I have never been a Savage fan till recently. They seem to have picked up their game on certain rifles. I don't think there is any magic here but if you buy one of their newer premium rifles you get a lot of bang for your buck. I never owned one till a month ago after I shot one of the 338 Lapua Mag's at 400 yards. Ordered my own the next day but due to not enough scope money till I sell some more Combloc guns it is at the rifle smith having a basic tune-up done while I get some glass. I bought a Model 40 .22 hornet two weeks ago with Leupold 6x-18x glass and it is an all holes touching rifle at 100 yards.
     
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