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Savage H&H 303 SMLE Sniper

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by Ole Humpback, Mar 1, 2012.

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  1. Ole Humpback

    Ole Humpback Member

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    http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=274554365

    Apparently the British selected the most accurate factory rifles and sent them to Holland & Holland for conversion into sniper rifles. I didn't think that the high end rifle manufactures did much during WWII, but apparently H&H knew it could lend a very good hand.
     
  2. murdoc rose

    murdoc rose Member

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    Yes No4 Mk1* (t) where sent to H&H (I believe other smiths as well but not sure) What strikes me as odd is that it is a lend lease act savage that has been converted but these where officially kept in service until 1970 (odds are much longer unofficially).
     
  3. Jeff F

    Jeff F Member

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    I not totally convinced that is an H&H conversion. There are quite a few fake No4 T's out there. H&H stamped the receivers not the stocks. The scope and mount mount looks original but the mounts on the receiver look like the reproductions that sarco or one of the other company's used to sell.
     
  4. bigedp51

    bigedp51 member

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    The mount pad screws are not staked and the receiver ring is not marked with the (T) conversion stamp, it a fake.
     
  5. Vaarok

    Vaarok Member

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    Not an Enfield expert, but I don't think it looks right. The patina is too mixed on the parts, especially the mount cradle and cheekpiece versus the scope and rifle.
     
  6. desidog

    desidog Member

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    ^ I agree with the above.

    <deleted> ...misinformation upon further research.

    No staking marks is a give away; and IIRC, H&H only worked on FAZ and BSA guns.
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2012
  7. Limey46

    Limey46 Member

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    Some points suggesting that the rifle may not be an original, Holland & Holland sniper:

    Most critically, there is no letter T stamped anywhere. H&H stamped all their rifles with a T on the left side of the receiver right after the model number (in this case No 4 Mk 1*), and they also stamped TR on the butt socket. These stamps were deep and clear, often much more distinct than the other stamps around them.

    According to the most authoritative work on the subject, Peter Laidler's An Armorourer's Perspective: .303 No 4(T) Sniper Rifle and the Holland & Holland Connection, the Savage-manufactured rifles converted by Holland & Holland were all No 4 Mk 1 models. There were some No 4 Mk1* snipers, but they were all Canadian guns manufactured and converted at the Long Branch (Canada) arsenal. Those guns did not bear Holland & Holland's S51 stamp on their butts, as this gun does.

    Holland & Holland stamped the number of the scope on the top of the butt right next to the butt socket. No number visible on this gun.

    Re the post above, Holland & Holland worked on guns manufactured by BSA, Savage/Stevens, and the Royal Ordnance Factory, Maltby -- no Long Branch guns and no Fazakerley guns. Total production of No 4(T) snipers was 23,177 at Holland & Holland, 1,403 at the Royal Small Arms Factory, Enfield, and 1,141 at Long Branch.
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2012
  8. murdoc rose

    murdoc rose Member

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    So general consensus is its a fake, good to know my gut feeling was right there.
     
  9. wnycollector

    wnycollector Member

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    I just clicked the GB link in post one and saw this "Current Bid $1,016.99 Reserve Not Met"
    WOW $1K plus for a fake!
     
  10. madcratebuilder

    madcratebuilder Member

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    This is not an original H&H built No4(T). The scope is an original No32 MkII, worth $600+. The S51 marked butt stock has value, the S (savage marked) back sight is worth $150+/-. The old style cocking piece is worth $100+. Worth well over a grand as parts alone.

    Real No4(T)'s are more like 3K+ for the rifle and a mismatched scope.

    This is a 1944 BSA, the scope is a mismatch but the rest is matching. I would but this one around 3.7+K with the fresh rebuilt scope.
    [​IMG]
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    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
  11. Curator

    Curator Member

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    A couple of thousand Savage/Stevens No4Mk1* rifles were set up by H&H during the war but not fitted with a telescope. A very few early production Savage No4Mk1 (no * and 6 groove barrels in the serial number range of 1C to 5C) were completely converted to T-rifle snipers. This rifle has had the pads installed (not staked screws and obvious differece in finish) It may also be a rebuild since it has a 5-groove barrel and the serial number range (14C) is well inside the change over to two groove barrels. Pakistan, India and Israel were known to occasionally cobble together rifles from bits and pieces.
     
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