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saved by a ccw tonight

Discussion in 'Strategies, Tactics and Training' started by paintballdude902, Sep 18, 2008.

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  1. Dksimon

    Dksimon Member

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    Good thing noone got hurt.

    I have had some friends get threatening phone calls but the only thing that ever came of it was fist fights, testosterone i guess. If i had thought someone was bringing a gun we would have been out of there ASAP
     
  2. Treo

    Treo member

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    So they politely patted you down? What did they think you staged the whole thing to get a shot at some cops?

    That's the part that really bugged me when the cops treat the victims of a crime the same as they do the perpatrators of the crime.
     
  3. romeo212000

    romeo212000 Member

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    You should always assume the worst. It sucks but its living in the real world.
     
  4. Mickstix

    Mickstix Member

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    I think alot of us forget what it was like to be 18-21 years old and hanging with a group of buddies on a hot summer night?? I'd of prolly been the dumb[BLEEP] tellin the guy to hurry up and get over there for his [BLEEP] kickin.. Times sure have changed though.. I know when I was that age, someone showing up with a gun would of been the LAST thing anyone would of expected.. Today, maybe not so much?? Anywho, glad all turned out ok, and the BG got what he deserved!!
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 19, 2008
  5. romeo212000

    romeo212000 Member

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    I think we are on the same page FourNineFoxtrot.
     
  6. FourNineFoxtrot

    FourNineFoxtrot Member

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    There's a difference between assuming the worst, and jumping at shadows.

    Now, obviously the OP's story wasn't a shadow. But if I get jumpy every time somebody tosses harsh words my way, I'd be one twitchy fellow.

    It's apparent we disagree as to the nature and degree of a phone threat, at least under some circumstances. That's cool, and I see your point. I can't think of anything else to say about it, so I'll leave it lie.

    Edit: Beat me to it, and more succinctly, at that. Peace.
     
  7. WayneConrad

    WayneConrad Member

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    I do know. Leave, and give the cops a call. Describe the exact place, who is coming to harm you, what they said, word for word, and what they drive. The cops might want to be there to meet them.

    Someone wants to threaten bodily harm--actually name the place, means, and time of harm--goodness gracious. That's as clear-cut a "let the cops handle this one" call as you ever get in life.

    romeo212000 speaks the truth.
     
  8. FourNineFoxtrot

    FourNineFoxtrot Member

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    WayneConrad... I agree with you, as long as I think the threat's for real, or there's even a good chance of it. Maybe I just hang out with a bunch of loudmouth guys, and have become kind of desensitized to the threat of violence. I could see something like this happening with my friends, and thinking nothing of it, because that's just the kind of crazy shenanigans they get into. Nothing ever comes of it. Guess it's different for everyone, though.
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2008
  9. ColinthePilot

    ColinthePilot Member

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    Glad everyone is ok. Thats one more good story in the 2A column. I gotta admit, I'm not so far away from that age, and I wouldn't have gone anywhere if I was with a group of guys. We would've puffed our chests and clenched our fists and waited to beat the tar out of the guy. In the last few years, I've grown up a bit and I'll boogie ASAP if that happened now.
     
  10. BigRugerLover

    BigRugerLover Member

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    The cops did nothing for me

    Several years ago (early 90's), my life was threatened via telephone. I called 911 - Kansas City, Missouri. They said that there was nothing they could do unless guy had actually TRIED to kill me. I told them that was not acceptable and they replied that since the guy was in Kansas and I was in Missouri (we were 6 miles apart if he was at home), there was definitely nothing they could do since he was out of state.

    Can you believe that? Its when I realized that the purpose of the police is not to prevent crime but to catch criminals and gather evidence to assist prosecutions.

    That very night I borrowed a couple of my dad's guns and have had guns in the house ever since, and now I have a ccw.

    Maybe they are a little more responsive to threats these days.

    BRL
     
  11. XavierBreath

    XavierBreath Member

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    One of the most important aspects of maturity is thinking for yourself.

    You are with some friends, and one of them recieves a cell phone call that becomes an argument filled with threats. He hangs up. The phone rings again, and he is told by the person on the other end of the line that he is comming to kick [BLEEP].

    Well. Usually, if a serious person wants to kick [BLEEP], no advance warning will be given. They will show up, walk up behind their target, cold cock them in the head with a brick and be done with it. If they want to make a greater impression, they will bring a few friends to pound on the unconcious victim and manage his friends. If they want to kill him, they will with no advance notice.

    This calling and warning and then showing up with a shotgun is immature impotent juvenile posturing.

    But then, so is acting unconcerned that a person has just notified you that they are coming your way to inflict harm on you. Staying put and acting as though nothing is happening and that you can and will handle it when the caller arrives is also immature juvenile posturing. Verbal threats of violence should be taken seriously. There is no reason to strut around like a bantam rooster thinking you can handle anything. The next person may come from behind with a brick. The posturer, if he shows up has no recourse but to ramp up and escalate his threats if you are there. You have no recourse but to do the same......... Unless one of you decides to act with maturity and de-escalate the situation. That's not likely to happen at that moment if it didn't happen before.

    There is a reason that there are age restrictions on legal concealed carry. Some young people do not act with maturity.

    Many people think that having a gun is the answer. It is not. Having good sense is the answer. Arm yourself with maturity and good sense now. It's legal for you to do so. No restrictions.

    Staying put and inviting trouble to come pay you a visit is not good sense. Remaining in the area when some of your friends do the same is not good sense. Resorting to a pistol to defend yourself against a shotgun is not good sense. Counting on a friend to pull a pistol to defend you against a shotgun is not good sense. Avoiding the shotgun all together is good sense.

    This is not self defense. This is juvenile posturing. Every bit of this story is an illustration of exactly why some people should not be allowed to carry a firearm. They are simply not responsible enough to do so. Every one of you is damned lucky that you are alive tonight and not involved in a murder investigation. It is only the internal fear of following through on the impotent threats made that prevented it.
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2008
  12. jakemccoy

    jakemccoy Member

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    I recommend taking an extra self-defense course if your state doesn't require it for your CCW. The course probably would have had you avoiding this situation altogether.
     
  13. Tribal

    Tribal Member

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    I'm going to say that I still don't think even the second phone call constituted a serious threat (in the sense of having your life being put at risk). If a guy says he wants to beat me up, and is on his way to do it in front of my friends, then I know I've got a possible fistfight (or more likely, talkfest or drive-by flipping off) coming. If he says he's going to shoot me or kill me then that's something entirely different. At the same time, though, how serious is his threat? Is he someone who will come up to you, cuss at you, and demand that you throw the first punch (and then leave under the pretense of "you're not worth it" when you don't)?

    For me, between 9/11 and Virginia Tech, I've had enough of cowards killing my people without resistance (which isn't to denigrate the efforts of those on Flight 93). If someone wants to come after me or my loved one with a gun then they will be met with a gun. I'm sick of scum preying on the good nature of others and I think a little resistance might encourage others to think twice. Thus would the world be made a slightly better place.
     
  14. Double Naught Spy

    Double Naught Spy Sus Venator

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    Things like that do actually happen where fake 911 calls are made to lure the cops into traps.

    Let's see, Treo, the cops roll up and there is a guy being held at gunpoint by another guy and his proverbial posse when the cops roll up. Who is the victim? It is hard to tell when you weren't there for all the action.

    The cops have a 911 call to which they are responding. Do they know for certain the aggressors are not making the call? Nope.

    Everybody at the scene is all hopped up on adrenaline and so sure the cops are going to check out all the players to make sure none of them are going to get in any final shots on the arrestee. It does happen.

    The "victims" (just one, and then his buddies who were there too, but not threatened by the perp) of the violent crime in progress call were not treated as perpetrators. The cops simply secured the scene and took control of the situation.

    If you are going to call the cops to a violent confrontation and they roll up while it is in progress, then expect all the actors to be examined closely until things are sort out fully. If you can't deal with such scrutiny, then maybe calling the cops isn't a good option for you.
     
  15. Son of Sam

    Son of Sam Member

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    Three counts of Attempted Assault with a Deadly Weapon but they secured the perp's weapon in his car before they hauled him off to jail? Come again? :scrutiny:
     
  16. LKB3rd

    LKB3rd Member

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    I am not going to try and second guess the young men involved. Chalk it up to experience, and be glad no one got hurt.
     
  17. Deus Machina

    Deus Machina Member

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    That's hardly the high road. While it may be justice, it's likely to put you in handcuffs. You may want to keep a check on yourself, my friend.

    The correct action was to call the cops. Performing less than the guy may deserve means you're not stooping to his level.

    OP was right here. Unless the guy said over the phone he was bringing a gun, it amounts to a fistfight at worst, and probably not even that. As it's been said, people likely to back up their words rarely say the words.
     
  18. Old Guy

    Old Guy Member

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    Young Cops get to be old Cops this way.
     
  19. onebigelf

    onebigelf Member

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    It's a great time to say, "Hey lets go to Denny's for coffee..." and NOT BE THERE. There are going to be times you can't step aside and let trouble pass you by. I've been attacked driving down the street for mistaken identity. No need to hang out and wait for trouble to get to you.

    John
     
  20. Starship1st

    Starship1st Member

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    I do not agree with the people saying the first sign of trouble; especially threats to a friend everyone should of called the police and left? Don't forget that the Supreme Court has ruled the police do not have to protect you.

    Second, they (the car club) had a right to be there, they were all just hanging out.

    Third thing is you never run out on a friend. You start that, and the next time your friends might run out on you. With a CCW permit comes responsibility. Friends stand together. :cool:
     
  21. Fred Fuller

    Fred Fuller Moderator Emeritus

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    "Hanging?" Hanging where? In a parking lot, or at a club building?

    "Called?" Called WHY? People usually don't call and make threats of bodily harm to other people out of the blue. What's the history between these two?

    And so on. Not to be critical or anything, but avoiding trouble in the first place is a LOT easier than getting out of it later.

    Just for the sake of future reference:

    http://www.defense-training.com/quips/2003/19Mar03.html

    19 Mar 03

    Layers of response:

    Years ago, Jeff Cooper delineated the "Color Code" and the "Principles of Personal Defense" in an effort to provide us with a logical model for one's thinking on the subject of mental preparedness. I'd like now to go to the next step and apply the same logic to the issue of personal appearance and demeanor, as we all agree that, in the domestic defensive environment, avoiding a fight is preferable to winning one.

    Layer One: Nonattendance. The best way to handle any potentially injurious encounter is: Don't be there. Arrange to be somewhere else. Don't go to stupid places. Don't associate with stupid people. Don't do stupid things. This is the advice I give to all students of defensive firearms. Winning a gunfight, or any other potentially injurious encounter, is financially and emotionally burdensome. The aftermath will become your full-time job for weeks or months afterward, and you will quickly grow weary of writing checks to lawyer(s). It is, of course, better than being dead or suffering a permanently disfiguring or disabling injury, but the "penalty" for successfully fighting for your life is still formidable.

    Crowds of any kind, particularly those with an agenda, such as political rallies, demonstrations, picket lines, etc are good examples of "stupid places." Any crowd with a high collective energy level harbors potential catastrophe. To a lesser degree, bank buildings, hospital emergency rooms, airports, government buildings, and bars (particularly crowded ones) fall into the same category. All should be avoided. When they can't be avoided, we should make it a practice to spend only the minimum time necessary there and then quickly get out.

    "A superior gunman is best defined as one who uses his superior judgment in order to keep himself out of situations that would require the use of his superior skills."

    Layer Two: Functional invisibility. We all need to practice to art of "being invisible." It is in our best interest to go our way unnoticed, both by potential predators and by the criminal justice system alike.

    Whenever I travel, particularly to foreign countries, I endeavor to be the one that no one notices; no one recalls; no one remembers. I silently slip through the radar, leaving no trace, a nameless, faceless tourist. When in any public place, I try to be clean and well groomed, but I never wear bright colors, any kind of jewelry, or anything shiny. I smile a lot, but talk softly and as little as possible. As we say in the law enforcement business, "Courteous to everyone. Friendly to no one."

    Loud talking, bright colors, Rolex watches, etc will consistently accumulate unwanted attention. On the other end of the spectrum, tattoos, poor grooming, loud and offensive language, a slovenly appearance, etc will also garner unwelcome notice.

    Layer Three: Deselection. Any successful predator has the ability to quickly screen potential victims, focusing in on the ones who look as if they will make good victims and rejecting those who either (1) look too strong for expedient victimization or (2) don't conveniently fall into any particular category.

    When invisibility fails, we need endeavor to be consistently deselected for victimization. We do this by making it a habit to appear alert, uninviting, self-confident, and strong. At the same time, we never loiter or appear indecisive. We are always in motion.

    "Weakness perceived is weakness exploited!"

    Layer Four: Disengagement: Our best interests are not served by any kind of engagement with potential predators. Successful disengagement involves posturing, bearing, verbalizations, and movement. It is in our best interest to disengage at the lowest reasonable force level, but we must simultaneously be prepared to instantly respond to unlawful force with superior force.

    Potential predators, as they attempt verbal engagement, should be politely dismissed. Bearing and eye contact should always project strength and confidence. We should continuously be moving off the "line of force." We should be observant in every direction, giving potential predator duos and trios the distinct impression that they will not be able to sneak up on us.

    When predators are confused, they are unable to focus sufficiently to carry off their victimization. Therefore, never let a potential predator seize the agenda. Don't answer his questions, and don't stay in any one place very long.

    Disengagement, separation, and exit are our immediate goals when we have been selected or are being seriously evaluated by predators. However, if there is to be a fight, the best one is a short one. If a predator menaces me with a gun or a knife, I know that, before it is all over, there is a good chance that I will be shot or cut. However, within that prison of circumstance, I also know that the faster I can end the fight, the less hurt I'm going to get! If there must be a fight, I must explode into action, moving smoothly and quickly, in an effort to confuse and overwhelm my opponent before he has a chance to process all the information I'm throwing at him.

    Ultimately, we must "have a plan." Potentially dangerous encounters must be thought about in advance. Decisions must be made. Skills must be practiced. Confusion, hesitation, and vacillation will always attract the attention of predators and simultaneously stimulate predator behavior.

    /John
     
  22. siglite

    siglite Member

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    Yup. Where I worked in the mid 90's we used to get occasional threats over the phone. The first few times, we called 911 and reported the threats. "If he hasn't stabbed anyone, there's nothing we can do." Wouldn't even send an officer out to take a report. Sometimes, the *******s actually showed up. Once, this resulted in me having to draw down in defense of myself and two co-workers. But most of the time, we were able to get them the hell off the property without involving weapons. We always called police, who typically showed up a half hour later.

    It only took a few calls with that response before we learned that 911 doesn't care about a verbal threat. I guess it's just too common and too rarely followed with actual violence. But in most jurisdictions, calling the police because someone threatened you verbally is just wasting your cell phone minutes. They don't care, and they won't respond.

    Hell, we had a guy flash a gun at one of our people. It was intentional, and it was intended to intimidate. When we called popo, they showed up pretty quickly. But it turned out the gun flasher was an off-duty cop from another jurisdiction. He walked.

    I wasn't there when he flashed the gun, but we had it on video. Our employee (understandably) freaked out. That's when I got called. We didn't know this guy was a cop. So we just left him in the little office alone until popo showed up. Thankfully, we didn't have a shootout.

    I did ask one of the officers though. "So, what you're seeing here on video, that's not brandishing?"

    "No."

    "What would be brandishing?"

    "We don't have a law against brandishing."

    "So, hypothetically, if I put a gun to your temple, no crime's committed until I pull the trigger?"

    *angry stare*

    They did have a law against brandishing. But hey, not when it applied to another LEO.

    Though, in their defense, they did respond very quickly to that one.

    If you want a quick response from LEOs, mention a gun.

    "Hey ,this guy's making threats against us, says he's on the way. He might have a gun."

    Yep, they'll show up quick then.
     
  23. Bobarino

    Bobarino member

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    ah, the misplaced loyalty of a youthful and inexperienced mind. your CCW does not make you your loud mouth "friend"'s bodyguard. if you stick around waiting for trouble to reach your friend and end up killing someone, you have some 'splaining to do.

    the big flaw with this line of thinking is that these people are not, or at least should not be, your friend. friends don't draw trouble to one another. and they certainly don't wait around for trouble to find them and obligate their friends to fight for them.

    its all a bunch of young machismo moxy. you don't need it. get new friends. and if this is the reason you want to get a CCW, you should hold off a few years until your thought control center moves from below center mass to above center mass.

    Bobby
     
  24. XDKingslayer

    XDKingslayer member

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    Yes it's much better to be a coward, tuck your tail between your legs, and continue to let people walk all over you. It's better to let people continually bully you and push you around than to actually stand up for yourself, draw a line in the sand and say "ENOUGH! This is my world too and I will stand my ground!".

    Yes, that's sarcasm and the last time I checked this country wasn't built on that attitude.

    At least Florida remembers where it came from...
     
  25. romeo212000

    romeo212000 Member

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    You guys dont get it. No one expected this guy to drive up with a shotgun but he did. This is juvenile chest puffing. If someone calls me and says I know where you are and I am coming to kick your ass I wont be there. I dont want to get into a fist fight anymore than I want to get into a gun fight. Choosing to be there when this guy said I am coming shows a great lack of maturity. Keeping your butt out of a bad situation does not show lack of courage. It shows a lot of sense. Your ego isnt worth risking exactly what happened here. There are too many things that can go wrong.
     
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