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saved by a ccw tonight

Discussion in 'Strategies, Tactics and Training' started by paintballdude902, Sep 18, 2008.

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  1. Son of Sam

    Son of Sam Member

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    Quit bickering already, at least until the OP can prove this really happened. I call BS on it right now.

    I'll publically eat my words when he posts a link to the news report (and you know there would be one if Walmart and "firearms" were involved)... Really. :rolleyes: ...or do you guys just love to argue about BS?
     
  2. gnut

    gnut Member

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    Self Defense?

    To the Administrator, right on. If more people would think first about their families, (your Mother)things of this nature would NEVER happen. But if that were ever to happen again I would not get to read about it and second guess the young man who posted this thread.
    To the yute involved, I am an experienced martial arts instructor, shooter, and talker, but things sometimes happen that are out of your control. So, second guess your actions, and your relationship with ".45 guy" but, do not leave this situation believing a firearm can get you out of every situation. They are tools. If properly used, yes they can save your life. Did you like being helpless? Did you like your friend ambushing you with his garbage life?

    Stay out of trouble, get a gun, drive cars, get girls, have fun- You are alive today. Go kiss your mother,father, etc.
     
  3. Chuck Spears

    Chuck Spears member

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    I don't think they did anything wrong by staying there. If people strictly followed some of the advice given around here then they'd be prisoners in their own home. Fear of confrontation shouldn't take away your freedom. If somebody wants to let threats dictate their daily life then that's their right but I refuse to do that.
     
  4. CountGlockula

    CountGlockula Member

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    Did Dustin kill the guy?

    I hope Dustin is prepared to answer to the cops, lawyer and fill out a lot of paper work.

    The shoot out doesn't end there.
     
  5. conw

    conw Member

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    Actually, most of the time if you ignore the bully he won't get what he wants (attention) and will go away. I am not saying to change your daily life over it, or to be afraid, but escalating a situation is a sure way of reducing the bully's perceived alternatives and increasing his justification, increasing the chance of violence against you.

    The poster here didn't even know the person who called, from what I can tell. The best option would have been to leave. If we were reading this as a news item, are you telling me you'd be commending the young folks who were slain by a shotgun for their bravery?

    I understand your perspective if you have a military background. There is no law against staying where you are if you are threatened or feel threatened. But most of the times, judging the situation through risk/benefit analysis, there is good reason to leave and little reason to stay. I think it's spreading the butter a little thin to compare this group of kids at a car club to "the founding fathers."
     
  6. XavierBreath

    XavierBreath Member

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    I just went through and deleted some posts that were personal attacks.

    I want to remind everyone here that we have rules in S&T. Your warning regarding personal attacks was already given in this sticky.

    I recommend that everyone who wants to continue to post in S&T read that sticky and this one as well.

    Enjoy the forum, but follow the rules.
     
  7. paintballdude902

    paintballdude902 Member

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    today i look back at what happened last night ands its actually pretty fuzzy it seams like when he actually showed up every thing happened really fast

    seams really stupid now to not have left but you gotta remember what its like being a teenage guy alot of people talk trash ona daily basis

    kevin told me about 20 minutes ago that is was over his girl friend and it was her ex boyfriend trying to be big and get her back
     
  8. Old Guy

    Old Guy Member

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    If this really happened? leaving does not alleviate the threat, the Mr. Shotgun Guy has Buddy's phone #, does he not.
     
  9. Lonestar49

    Lonestar49 Member

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    In a nutshell

    I've only got one more word to add to the above.. Kids :rolleyes: (mixed with guns and "impulsive thinking" stand your ground, act first, think about it later, is a bad mix)


    Ls
     
  10. Creature

    Creature Member

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    Does anyone recall Akira Kurosawa's, "The Seven Samurai"...and in particular, the doorway scene?

    A compelling scene in which the group's leader tests the other samurai's maturity by erecting an ambush at the doorway of their shack. Only the best samurai stopped short before entering the doorway. For if they had, they would have been hit over the head by another of the samurai who was waiting just on the other side of the doorway with a raised club.

    The point of that scene was that with maturity came the ability to sense when trouble is near and having the smarts to use that intuition to avoid getting hit over the head unnecessarily.
     
  11. conw

    conw Member

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    It alleviates the immediate threat and minimizes the possibility of lethal force on either end. It also de-escalates the situation. Anyone who analyzes situations like this will tell you time is on your side if you are on the OP's side of things. The sooner you see someone after they threaten you, the more endangered you are. Generally speaking, as Xavier said, those who are intent on using lethal force do not make threats or give warnings. Chances are that the shotgun thug would not have used his shotgun, but we can't know.
     
  12. CWL

    CWL Member

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    I'm still trying to get a grip around "car club" and hanging out in a WalMart parking lot. Everyone knows you guys hang-out there?

    If I was planning a murder, I'd have my shotgun in the front seat on my lap, ready to go. I wouldn't leave it in the back seat...

    Lots more to this story I reckon. Not that I'm accusing the OP of anything wrong, but I suspect that something unexplained in this posting happened between the BG and car club "President".
     
  13. Lonestar49

    Lonestar49 Member

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    ...

    It did, club president was dating ex-boyfriends girl.. same story x 1,000,000,000


    Ls
     
  14. bogie

    bogie Member

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    Do not hang out or associate with people who like violence, or who hang out with or associate with people who like violence.
     
  15. Ragnar Danneskjold

    Ragnar Danneskjold Member

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    It's really hard for me to take a post that lacks capitalization and punctuation seriously.
     
  16. brownie0486

    brownie0486 Member

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    Young Cops get to be old Cops this way.

    Excellent statement sir. Forethought goes a long way. I'm surprised the cops didn't use more force [ verbal and otherwise ] on all parties once they saw the gun.

    Brownie
     
  17. Borch

    Borch Member

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    That's youngster code for a bunch of guys who drive Hondas with those annoying mufflers that make the tiny engine sound like a big blender all hanging out together. It's kind of like going cruisin' only without all that pesky driving.:D

    In all seriousness though, I can remember being young and being ten feet tall and bulletproof, as my Dad would say. I was invovled in more than one scrape that I definately should have been long gone from before it started. The difference, paintballdude, is that when I was young, my scrapes didn't involve guns. Next time you get a 20 minute heads up that the fit is about to hit the shan, do your family and yourself a favor and get the hell out of Dodge.
     
  18. Starship1st

    Starship1st Member

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    "ah, the misplaced loyalty of a youthful and inexperienced mind. your CCW does not make you your loud mouth "friend"'s bodyguard. if you stick around waiting for trouble to reach your friend and end up killing someone, you have some 'splaining to do. "

    lol: My thinking is neither youthful or inexperienced. :cool:
     
  19. XavierBreath

    XavierBreath Member

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    No need to defend your point, just make it. Truth stands on it's own. It is self evident. No amount of age or experience is needed to prop it up.

    Old grey bulls need not snort and claim to be old grey bulls. They already are.
    Old salts need not get new tats to show they are old salts. They already are.

    A right to be there? On somebody else's property? I would object to that if I were that parking lot's owner. Nobody has a right to invite bloodshed onto my property, not even the Prezedant of Suth'rn Dreamz Car Club. Of course, I'm assuming the club president was not the parking lot owner, and I could be wrong........ Could we clarify that? Until that remote possibility is clarified, the percentages are against it. I dare say that if the parking lot owner had called the police to report these trespassers hanging out on his property inviting bloodshed, then the police would have responded. The car club members would have been removed, voluntarily or against their will. Of course the owner was not aware of this, was he?

    Friends don't place friends in precarious legal positions of life, limb and litigation. If they do, they are not friends. This was not a platoon of Marines in Tikrit. This was a bunch of young men in a car club, in a parking lot.

    Did the car club had some sworn oath to each other as members to go back to back and defend each other to the death if trouble came calling? If that was the expectation of the club's president of his members, then perhaps the membership isn't worth it. A Toyota with a loud muffler, sick stereo and a stupid paint job is not worth that kind of loyalty. Neither are ten of these automobiles that travel to car shows together a few times each year. There are some things worth fighting for. The right to hang out on somebody else's property talking cars and women and trash because you have nothing better to do hardly qualifies. Yeah, I did that about thirty years ago. I thought it was worthwhile. I thought those buddies were worth it. Then I shipped overseas and when I returned years later I saw just how small it was. It damned sure wasn't worth my life. Maybe you think it's worth your life, who am I to argue that? Not everyone is going to agree when you say it is worth their life.

    A CCW permit does come with responsibility. The first responsibility is to behave in a legal fashion. Do not invite trouble. Stay out of trouble. Avoid having to use your gun. This is not fear or cowardice. This is maturity and common sense. This is a CLUE; a Clear Lucid Understanding of Everything.

    If you ever do have to use your gun, you can expect to lose it, and wait several months for a grand jury to convene and determine whether you will be prosecuted. The police on the scene do not determine that. The DA and a grand jury do. Meanwhile, you are raising money for a legal defense. Place your home in hock, sell off your souped up Toyota and get ready. If you can't afford your own attorney, you begin to wonder about the case load and ability the public defender who will represent you. You lose your job, since you can't split the time between Auto Zone and the jail you wait in. Your "friend" abandons you. He is protecting his own skin with testimony that may implicate you in something you did not participate in or could have avoided simply by leaving. So do your other friends. People talk about you behind your back in whispers. While you await the grand jury, the press runs you down publically. If it is a mixed race shooting, race baiters get involved, and your reputation is destroyed. You are never vindicated. At best, the DA and grand jury will simply find there is not sufficient evidence to prosecute. Gun forums anonymously celebrate your hollow victory while Ihop turns you down as a pancake flipper.

    Meanwhile, all CCW holders have to take on the image that you have imposed on them. We are all seen as stubborn car club members who will simply not leave when trouble calls ahead by 20 minutes. Yeah, a CCW does carry responsibility. Responsibility to yourself, your family, and perhaps others who have chosen to take on the responsibility expected of a person given the legal right to carry concealed. I agree all of us should have that right, but it is regulated by the state. It will never be recognized as a right that should not be infringed in any way if people who are deemed responsible enough by the state to exercise it act in this fashion.
     
  20. JeffDilla

    JeffDilla Member

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    In my mind, xavier sums it up pretty well. Puts it in perspective and well said. Actions have consequences, whether right or wrong, or if we agree with them or not.
     
  21. WheelgunZealot

    WheelgunZealot Member

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    Couldn't have said it better myself, XavierBreath.
     
  22. Sean Dempsey

    Sean Dempsey Member

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    XavierBreath

    Thank you. I had to resist posting here for a few days because I didn't have anything nice to say.

    The whole situation sounds like kids trying to feel the excitement of ramboism under the guise of proper CCW use. Sideways hats, baggy pants, ricers, "tuners", big spoilers.... I don't know. When I read the original post, I felt nothing but irritation and the urge to scold him.
     
  23. neviander

    neviander Member

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    I'm wondering what was said to the agitator before your buddy hung up. I've been in situations like that. Guys that trigger happy have egos that are REAL easy to bruise; they'd rather get killed than be insulted and forget about it.
     
  24. Sean Dempsey

    Sean Dempsey Member

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    I am guessing there is a huge part of this story we aren't hearing, mostly consisting of f-words, attempted intimidation on both sides, machoism and posturing on both sides, as well as continuing and feeding the situation because of a sense of excitement and adventure.


    Honestly, a bunch of guys hanging around their Tuners, listening to rap music, pants around their asses, .45 tucked in their waistband (never said what type of holster he had... if any). I would bet you 100 bucks that something to the effect of "Tell that motherf***er that I've got my fo-tee five right here if he wants trouble!" was shouted at some point.

    I am just guessing, of course, but unless the Car Club was for Ferraris, Aston Martins, and Lotus', I am guessing it's the same dudes who see me and peel out in their Hondas at stop lights, proving their NOS Tuner can totally waste my entry-level Trailblazer.
     
  25. jlbraun

    jlbraun Member

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    Usually, I disagree with Lee Lapin. However, this time he's right on.

    If you know trouble's coming your way, don't be there.

    Here are the (other) Four Rules:
    Avoid stupid people.
    Avoid stupid places.
    Avoid doing stupid things.
    Avoid stupid times of the day.
     
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