Saving an Italian Vetterli from being a wall hanger (rest of the story)

[Hummer70]

The original thread is defunct and I noted that there was lots of interest so here is the rest of the story but first a little background. The reason the thread went dead is starting last spring I got subjected to three heart procedures after I passed/failed a stress test. They went in for a looky looky and decided I needed stints. They went in for the stints and punched a blood vessel coming out of aorta about five minutes into procedure and I wound up in ICU getting sonagrams for 10 hours.

Two days later they discharged me and we went to a Holiday Inn for three days to be near the hospital in case something happened and it did. Woke up two mornings later with chest pains so we went back to hospital and they plugged me up right quick and said heart was fine so they started running tests and 7 hours later they came in and said I had gall stones.

Called my doc who called cardiologist who called me and he told me to get the gall bladder out quick so I did. Then the original cardiologist left and my Doc had to find me another this one was 75 and marvelous. He got me to another for the second stint try who worked on me 27 minutes and said he was stopping as the tests he had just run indicated I needed triple bypass and not stints as I would have only lasted two years. Begs the question why the first two that looked at me wanted to do stints?????

Well he got me lined up with a chest cutter and last Oct 2nd I had the triple bypass and was in recovery so my Italian girl was on the back burner. Yawl wanted some pics so here we go.

Here she is in all her splendor.


Note there is a aluminum block on the front as I determined the front sight was too hard to see and too low to achieve reliable hits at local hunting distances of 75 to 125 yards so worked up a aluminum block with the idea of putting a higher front sight on it so the base range would be 100 yards for POA/POI.



There is lots of confusion around about Swiss Vetterlis and Italian Vetterlis and below is the variations of ammo they utilize. Mine fires the middle round.

Then I did some more planning and got a stick of 3/4" X 1" hot rolled bar stock and made a steel block. Also bought some M14 front sights as they have protective EARS and can be mounted easier than commercial sights and have lots of adjustment for windage.





Note the factory front sight is right of bore center line and the M14 sight is a tad left of the factory. The factory ammo is circa 315 grains and I am shooting Lyman 44 Mag cast bullet at 257 grains and it needed the front sight a tad left of the factory.


So here is what it looks like from the fun end and makes for a better sight picture.

With this set up I am getting POA/POI at 100 yards. I have also loaded Sierra 240 gr bullets and have loaded both with up to 22 grains 2400 with no problems. With the above sight configuration I think I will stay with the cast bullet for the time being.

As I mentioned there was confusion and when I looked for dies there was only one die set I could locate made by Lee called the 41 Swiss and I have been able to load my ammo with them. I just recently learned this week CH of Ohio makes dies for the 10.4X47 Italian Vetter (which mine is) but I don't guess I will get the official ones as these manage to load my ammo though I have had to do some modifications.

Per the computer Loading Program my load (17.5 gr 2400) is about 10,000 lbs and seems to be what I will stay with.

Originally I had to get the sear surface on the striker built back up as someone had tried to improve the trigger and had I tried to load and shoot it initially there would have been a problem as the the striker seared off before the bolt was closed. I made sure the sear engagement was much more than needed and I will probably go back and improve the trigger before winter.



These are the cast bullets I made and lubing them with thinned down Alox painted on with an artists brush.

I have read the bore dimensions vary with these and I have both measured grooves with inside mic and miced a bullet I fired with a load I knew would stop in barrel and both measurements are .429" in the groove area.

 

[NIGHTLORD40K]

Wow!

That's one gorgeous Italian bird!

Glad to hear they got your ticker fixed up too, brother!

 

[Hummer70]

Thanks, they are a bit quirky to reload for and not the usual you run into but then again she is 144 years old and could be used to bring home meat. When she was made the word reloading probably had not been thought of yet.

 

[Walkalong]

Very cool rifle, glad you are doing better.

 

[Hummer70]

The original thread had a number of pictures of how the brass was formed. I decided to use the 348 Winchester because opening up a case from 8MM to 10.4MM is a lot more for the necks to expand up to than start at 35 cal and get there. I had to fabricate some interesting tooling to get them there and had to stress relieve the necks in the process because every time you move brass it work hardens and shortens its life if you don't stress relieve it.



This is the neck expander I made that was used to open the necks.


And how it was used.



This is how I annealed the necks which is the exact same way as was done at Frankford Arsenal, Lake City and all the other gov't arsenals and the industry . A couple years ago I saw a segment on the History Channel made at East Alton, Illinois (Winchester) and it showed the cases rotating down the line going through gas flames.

I have a friend who has a copy of thousands of pages of data from Frankford Arsenal and he pulled the process sheets which explains clearly how annealling was approximately which was "approximately six seconds in the flames rotating at approximately 30 RPMs". THEY NOR NOBODY IN THE INDUSTRY DROP THESE HOT CASES INTO WATER. HEATING CASES TO RED HOT RUINS THEM. YOU WANT YOUR NECKS TO BE A LIGHT BLUE (SEE GOV'T AMMO FOR BLUE TINTS AT NECK/SHOULDER). IF THE COME OUT DARK BLUE YOU HAVE RUINED THEM.

This is just a few of the things I learned when I worked for the Army Small Cal Lab at Picatinny Arsenal and there was another highpower shooter in ammo engineering who taught me how to do it. He had one simple statement to explain brass life which was:

IF YOU CARE FOR YOUR BRASS CORRECTLY YOU SHOULD NEVER LOSE A CASE FROM A SPLIT NECK. THE ONLY THING YOU CAN'T PREVENT IS THE PRIMER POCKETS WEARING OUT BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT FORMED AS MILITARY AMMO IS. MILSPEC CASES HAVE FIVE HARDNESS RANGES NECK IS 1 (SOFTEST) AND GOES 2, 3 5 AND 4. 5 IS THE WEB AREA AT THE BASE OF THE CASE AND ON MILSPEC BRASS IT IS MADE TO BE HARD/TOUGH. THE CASE RIM IS 4 AS IT NEEDS TO BE A TAD SOFTER. COMMERCIAL BRASS IS NOT MADE THE SAME AND THUS VERY FEW RELOADS GENERALLY. CIP I HAVE ONE 30.06 LC MATCH CASE I HAVE LOADED 157 TIMES AND IT IS WAITING FOR ME TO GET BACK TO TESTING.



Note the sharp pointed inner blue flame is directed to the case body right below the shoulder and is rotating in a fixture I made and it is being turned by a variable speed drill. When I get to the time I just point the drill down and drop it onto a towel. No gloves are needed if you don't touch the fixture. To make things easier I have a electronic metronome and I set it to one second clicks to insure uniformity of times in flame. Some cases like 5.56 I drop them at 5 seconds, others 6 or 7 seconds.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Very nice old rifle. I have a thing for the older firearms. I'm glad to hear you're on the mend health wise.

 

[Hummer70]

Thanks, the Lord was definitely looking out for me.
I also have a 71 Mauser, and a 6.5 Daudeteau on a 71 Mauser, and a Cadet Mod Trapdoor Springfield I had a new barrel put on because bees built a nest in the bore and ruined it. I also have a Cavalry Model Krag dtd 1901 with a new barrel for the same reason. I always passed up the Vetterli rifles as I knew there was no ammo but I knew there was now folks making the brass and thanks to internet I was able to find out pretty quick.

Then the helpful part the rifle was a gift. Wife is pretty sure the rifle belonged to her grandfather.

In my original search it did not show that CH made dies so I wound up with dies that for lack of a better description can actually be called neck dies as they are too short to really do the job but I have been able to work around problems because I have a lathe and a mill.

I figure guys need three things to be successful and dangerous, 1. a pick up truck, 2. a lathe and 3 a milling machine haha



Guess you could add a trailer that will haul several tons. I have had this one since 1976 and it has been as far north as Springfield, Mass, as far west as Alabama and to Tampa, Fla. When I got it, it had dual axles, wore them out and mounted the single axle with 8000 lb capacity and it is perfect for my needs. Getting ready to put third deck on it. I hauled in lathe and mill on it.

 

[berettaprofessor]

I got subjected to three heart procedures after I passed/failed a stress test. They went in for a looky looky and decided I needed stints. They went in for the stints and punched a blood vessel coming out of aorta about five minutes into procedure

And this is why I'm pretty resistant to stress tests in people with no clinical signs. As long as I can work without issues all afternoon in the hot outdoors, I figure I'm stress-testing myself pretty well. And I know three people who either died or had complications during "elective" stent procedures after failed stress tests and two other friends who died of heart attacks within 3 months after a "normal" stress test. I'm just not sure they're got it all nailed down yet.

 

[dh1633pm]

Glad your feeling better and can get back to the things you love. That is a fine Italian Rifle. I have a couple rollers and a trap door. They sure are fun to shoot.

 

[Hummer70]

Yeah I have heard of similar problems with heart patients. I can go all day in the heat and continually intake fluids. I have a 40 oz insulated cup I carry and empty it three to four times a day keeping well hydrated. I also read that 80% of heart attacks happen to people who had no prior symptoms.

I spent all Saturday morning into afternoon improving the die design I have and making additional tooling to:

1. Increase neck tension so bullets won't fall into cases. Did this by altering a 30-40 Krag FL die I found in my die parts collection. Cut base off about 3/8" to where it would size Vet necks. If needed I can still use it for a Krag though I have a full set. I have bought cheap die parts I find in flea markets etc for years and they have paid off on several projects over the years.
2. Assuring proper bullet alignment going up into seat die. Prior to this they wanted to fall sideways and I ruined one case already.
3. Re design of nose plug in seat die to orient match flat bullet noses I am loading.
4. Also found a Lyman M2 expander die so I made up a custom expander gives me .003" grip on the bullets and the mouth is opened to .431 so I can pre position bullet in case neck before running it up into die. Works real slick.

I now seat .429 bullets into a .426 neck which had a marvelous result. Up until now it felt like I was shooting a big pellet rifle but now the recoil and the report feels right and moreover shoots POA/POI so the M14 sight conversion worked out fine.

I am hoping to get the cast bullets shooting within the V ring at 100 yards. Or to put it another way this group meets the same acceptance accuracy the M1 Garand rifles were manufactured to meet and exceeds M14 accuracy requirements. Group is only 1/2" larger than M16 accuracy acceptance so for a military rifle it is actually holding it's own and they were not shot with cast booleets ! ! !

I will be inserting toilet paper in next loads to help in ignition as well as trying some other propellant numbers.