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saw a rare sight at a gunshow yesterday...

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by Carolina Kalash, Jul 24, 2011.

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  1. Carolina Kalash

    Carolina Kalash Member

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    found a Japanese Arisaka type 99 with the mum still on the reciever, i woulda bought it if i had had the money...
     
  2. Philippe

    Philippe Member

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    Interesting.... They just had one on Sons of Guns the other night except it was a type 38 and still had the mum on it.
     
  3. speedway

    speedway Member

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    I bought a type 38 with Mum at a gunshop for $50.

    The guy has no luck selling milsurps.
     
  4. btg3

    btg3 Member

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    Where was the show that you went to?
     
  5. Carolina Kalash

    Carolina Kalash Member

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    C&E show in charlotte N.C.
     
  6. Walkalong

    Walkalong Moderator

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    What's a mum?
     
  7. Murphy4570

    Murphy4570 Member

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    Walkalong, the "mum" others are referencing is the seal of the Emperor of Japan, Emperor Hirohito.

    This seal was ground off of Jap weapons after they surrendered to us in 1945. General of the Army D. MacArthur, in charge of the occupation, enforced this Imperial Japanese order to American troops as well, so the Japs could "save face" as much as possible. Honor was paramount in the Imperial Japanese Army/Navy. Death before dishonor was more than a catchphrase to them.

    As such, finding an authentic Jap firearm with the mum intact is a rare find, and commands higher prices amongst collectors.
     
  8. nosmr2

    nosmr2 Member

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    I thought you were gonna say, "a deal." That would have been uber rare.
     
  9. HoosierQ

    HoosierQ Member

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    The Imperial Chrysanthamum that was imprinted on all Japanese weapons signifying their service to the Emperor. Before and during surrender Japanese troops removed them so as not to disgrace the Emperor. Post surrender, all weapons in US hands had the mums ground off for the same reason. Most of the GI bring backs had the mums removed if they came back after the war. A 99 or a 38 with an intact mum is kind of rare but not extremely so...I have seem a number of them. But they are desireable. Basically, a 99 with an intact mum was probably captured in battle with its Japanese owner likely KIA and was brought home before the end of the war by the GI that picked it up on the battlefield. Of course there are many other possible scenarios for an intact mum.
     
  10. wally

    wally Member

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    Yes, like with any of the other less common / more desirable variations in WWII arms you need to be on the lookout for fraud/counterfeits -- especially if the price premium is significant.
     
  11. Keb

    Keb Member

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    McArthur also dumped shiploads of Samurai swords into the ocean.
     
  12. gun addict

    gun addict Member

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    not rare at all to be honest, the mum is a factor in collectibility of Arisakas but more importantly arsenal and series or rare models are what makes Arisakas valuable
     
  13. jimmyraythomason

    jimmyraythomason Member

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    I've seen many with undefaced mums. They were not counterfeit but cheap mil-surps in the 1970s.
     
  14. JackTheRipper

    JackTheRipper Member

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    about how much are they worth?
     
  15. raddiver

    raddiver Member

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    I want to say 5-600 with mum attached and in decent condition.
     
  16. jdex

    jdex Member

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    Speed, does that gunshop have a website?
     
  17. gun addict

    gun addict Member

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    negative, i've seen many complete Arisakas with mum intact for the $200 range, again the mum itself is NOT a big indicator of its value. Again we'd need the arsenal and serial range and model to determin the price. There are so many variations of Arisakas or just military surplus firearms in general you cannot put a price on an unseen gun easily
     
  18. blanket

    blanket Member

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    How much is a 99 with the mum and capture papers worth? Thanks Russ
     
  19. USAF_Vet

    USAF_Vet Member

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    My Type 38 has a partially visible mum. A completely intact mum increases the value, about double or triple of what a ground mum rifle is worth. But considering that a regular type 38 or type 99 in halfway decent condition is only worth between $150 and $250, an intact mum rifle is really only worth $500- $600 at best. Arisakas just aren't as collectible as other milsurps for some reason. I think a lack of cheap mil surp ammo is a large part of it.

    Most Arisakas won't include 'authentic' capture papers. Most rifle bring backs were not done during the war, but from the Army of Occupation following the war. Capture papers would be more likely found with pistols and swords, if even then. Back in WWII, war spoils were often overlooked by the brass, especially in the Pacific. Paperwork for bring backs didn't really get started until after Korea.

    Pistols and (to some extent) swords were easier to get home, rifles not so much. Pretty difficult to stuff a rifle in a footlocker or sea bag. They just weren't worth the effort.

    The war spoils in highest demand were the German Luger and the Japanese 'Samurai' Sword.
     
  20. animator

    animator Member

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    Saw a pair of 99s with the mum undamaged at the last show I was at. Asking price was 350 for each. I declined, but didn't consider it too far out of line. The rifles were a bit rough...
     
  21. rocky branch

    rocky branch Member

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    "Capture papers" which are merely authorizations for souveniers to be mailed or carried home have little or nothing to do with how the piece was acquired.

    They were used quite hapahazardly or not at all in many circumstances.

    Recently, they have been "rediscovered" and are commonly faked and temendously overvalued.

    I began collecting in the early 60s when most pieces were still in vets hands.

    My family and most locals were vets.

    I got Lugers, Nambus, Arisakas, you name it.
    I got to look at lots of pieces not for sale.

    I doubt that 5 of a hundred weapons I ever saw had any paperwork.

    VN was different-paperwork was so oppresive that a lot of guys never bothered with souveniers.

    "Ground" Arisakas far outnumber unground or undefaced examples.
    Partially ground equals partially pregnant.
     
  22. Frogman

    Frogman Member

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    I passed on a ground Mum 99 7.7 jap for $100.00 at a yard sale last year - I haven't seen ammo for them under $25.00 a 20rd box in ages. I'll bet it's in the $30+ range now.
     
  23. USAF_Vet

    USAF_Vet Member

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    7.7 and 6.5 Jap ammo is dwindling. It's not as bad as they portrayed on Sons of Guns, it's available, but not cheap. $25 a box is about right, on the low end.
     
  24. blowfeld

    blowfeld member

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    I have seen these with the mum in tact. I never bought one because they were junk guns. More of a club than a good rifle. German K98s is a whole nother barrel of fish.
     
  25. HankB

    HankB Member

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    EARLY Arisakas are quite nicely made - the Japs had a very good differential heat treating process that made them among the very strongest of actions. (P.O. Ackley, in his book, reported that had great difficulty blowing one up with deliberate overloads when he was trying to see what the ultimate strength limits were on various military actions.)

    Hardly "junk" guns.

    On the other hand LATE war Arisakas were SO poorly made - not even heat treated! - that they're dangerous to shoot; these DO fit the description of "junk guns."
     
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