Saw this at Walmart the other day.

[joneb]

Swiss Tech Haltbar Knife with a VG-10 Full Tang Steel Blade and Canvas Micarta Handle - Walmart.com

Buy Swiss Tech Haltbar Knife with a VG-10 Full Tang Steel Blade and Canvas Micarta Handle at Walmart.com

www.walmart.com

It looked good, does anyone have one of these?

 

[nettlle]

I don't have that particular knife but all my good kitchen knives have VG-10 blades. It's a very good blade steel.

 

[JohnKSa]

I prefer a knife with some kind of very positive provision for keeping one's fingers off the blade edge, but that aside, it looks like a good knife.

If it's VG10 steel, that's not a bad choice. 0.2" blade thickness is on the thick side for a knife that size. It will be pretty stout which could be a good thing because VG10 is only middle of the road for toughness in stainless steels. So if it's intended for hard use, that thickness will provide an extra measure of durability for the overall blade though obviously not for the blade edge. There's always a tradeoff--that thickness could hurt performance a bit if you're cutting all the way through something. You'll have to push that thickness through whatever you're cutting.

I don't like the sheath because of the rivets. As the sheath wears, those rivets will eventually ride against the blade edge.

 

[nettlle]

Recommendation for a better knife steel other than VG-10 in the same price range?

 

[JohnKSa]

There's nothing wrong with VG10 steel. But there's almost always something "better" than any given steel, depending on what you're looking for.

Are you looking for really good edge holding (will be hard to sharpen, but should require sharpening less often), really good toughness (worried about chipping or breaking due to the type of intended use), or something that provides a really good balance of the two?

Do you want stainless or "carbon" steel?

 

[nettlle]

I actually have a couple of carbon steel kitchen knives that hold an edge better than VG-10 but will rust very easily.

 

[JohnKSa]

Edge holding is a combination of a number of things, primarily edge geometry, carbide content, carbide type, and hardness.

All else being equal, a steel with higher carbide content will hold an edge better.
All else being equal, a steel with harder carbides will hold an edge better.
All else being equal, a blade that is harder will hold an edge better than one that is softer.

Start mixing things around and it gets complicated.

If we assume that a typical carbon steel blade is sharpened to the same edge geometry and tempered to the same final hardness, a steel like VG10 that has significant carbide content should hold an edge better.

But if the carbon steel blade is tempered very hard and the VG10 blade is much softer, the reverse could be true.

 

[Slamfire]

I do not like stubby handles and this knife has 4 3/4" long handle, that's excellent, allows different grips and keeps your fingers away from the edge. I look for a 4.5 inch long handle don't want to go shorter, a 4 inch one is too short for me.

Looks like a good knife, a 4 inch blade is utilitarian. I prefer a drop point as swept points always manage to cut my support hand. This has a drop point, and it is thick. That's good. VG-10 is a great knife steel, knife steel arguments converge on pedantic and pointlessness. My VG-10 knives take a great edge with my diamond stone and a finishing touch on a medium India. My cut criteria is a Roma tomato, if it cuts a Roma tomato, the edge is good. VG-10 will cut a Roma tomato. Canvas micarta will outlast the owner and is naturally rough. I consider both of those good.

Price is $50.00, that's a deal in my opinion.

 

[jmr40]

Most of Spyderco's signature knives use VG-10. I have some other knives with it. IMO it's a decent steel for the money. But I have no idea if the Swiss Tech steel is anywhere near as good as Spyderco.

But $50 is more than I'd pay to find out. Especially when Mora's are under $20.

 

[joneb]

There's nothing wrong with VG10 steel. But there's almost always something "better"

I am not sure how 14C28N compares to VG-10 because I saw this, https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07T4SH5G...92KSEYEWX&ref_=list_c_wl_lv_ov_lig_dp_it&th=1 My wallet hates Amazon.
Assuming the heat treat is good is there a big difference between the two?

 

[JohnKSa]

It's a good steel. Well, they are both good steels, actually.

As I mentioned above, the properties of a blade depend on more than just the steel it's made of. With that (massive) caveat in mind, VG10 should have an advantage in edge-holding, 14C28N should be significantly tougher and a bit more corrosion resistant.

Frankly, unless I was really concerned about toughness, I wouldn't make a decision between a 14C28N knife and a VG10 knife based on the steel they are made of unless they were very similar in all other respects. I would base the decision on other features.

 

[rust collector]

I picked up a Joker Trampero some years ago and it has been excellent. Sandvik has excellent quality control, and 14c28n is one of my favorites for a working knife. Unfortunately, they are asking about $20 more than when I bought, but that's life as we know it. It will last a good long time, but micarta scales may be less expensive and more durable. I liked the appearance of the olive wood.

 

[Slamfire]

It's a good steel. Well, they are both good steels, actually.

As I mentioned above, the properties of a blade depend on more than just the steel it's made of. With that (massive) caveat in mind, VG10 should have an advantage in edge-holding, 14C28N should be significantly tougher and a bit more corrosion resistant.

Cliff Stamp used to say the heat treatment was more important than the steel. Can't disagree with that.

What do you, Knife Nerds has an article on heat treatment: Factory vs Custom Heat Treating of Knives

We as consumers don't have electron scanning microscopes and the knife factories are not going to reveal what heat treating equipment they use, nor what they do. Only way to know how the blade performs is to use it.

 

[gobsauce]

Cliff Stamp used to say the heat treatment was more important than the steel. Can't disagree with that.

What do you, Knife Nerds has an article on heat treatment: Factory vs Custom Heat Treating of Knives

We as consumers don't have electron scanning microscopes and the knife factories are not going to reveal what heat treating equipment they use, nor what they do. Only way to know how the blade performs is to use it.

I actually have access to an SEM, what would we be looking for? I'm not a materials engineer, but I have a little experience characterizing conductive inks and powders using an SEM.

I have size limitations, but I think it'd be a fun exercise.

 

[Boattale]

Don't be fooled by the name. It's a china knife.

 

[JohnKSa]

I actually have access to an SEM, what would we be looking for?

The kind of testing that would tell you everything you want to know about heat treat would be destructive testing. You can test hardness without destroying the blade and that would provide some information, but toughness testing is going to be destructive. There is technology out there that one could use to determine if a blade is made from the steel that is claimed, but it is expensive and doesn't really provide any information about the heat treat.

When we compare knife steels in finished products, we have to make a lot of assumptions. If both knives are quality products made by companies that stand behind their merchandise then maybe those assumptions are reasonable and we can do our comparison based on the composition of the steel itself with some reasonable chance of getting it right. Otherwise we have virtually no chance of being right.

People will tell you that the most important quality of a knife blade is the heat treat. I'm going to tell you right now while that might be correct, it's not useful information because testing the heat treat on a finished knife is not feasible. The most important quality of a knife blade is the dedication of the manufacturer to integrity and to providing quality products. That's really all you have to go on. That's what gives you confidence that the blade is made from the steel that matches the advertising, the confidence that it's been heat treated properly, that the geometry is appropriate for the use, that the quality control of the steel is good.

That's why it's so important to be sure that you're buying from a good company.

 

[joneb]

Thanks for the input I have two Mora Companion knives one is carbon and the other is stainless, I do like them but I would like a similar sized knife with a full flat grind that is a good slicer. The Joker Trampero seems to be a good option, and then some how a made in China knife pops up that scratches my itch for less $ how did that happen?

 

[rust collector]

They can make a good knife in China, but they know that what people want to buy are pretty knives with cheap prices. They are tempted, just as our producers are, to cut corners to increase the profit. Just as with guns, producers know that few will test the limits of the merchandise. If they are widely accepted, they become desirable and by the time their faults become apparent, a group of fanbois will shout down the naysayers. All producers are trying to find the sweet spot that maximizes profit while managing the consequences of promises not fulfilled.

Every product is a compromise, and every culture brings its own value system to bear on the tools they produce. If art and aesthetics were not a part of every tool, it would be hard to beat the value of a $30 Mora Kansbol or Glock 81. Yet I own Chinese knives, and have not been disappointed by my Kizers and Civivis. I agree with @JohnKSa that all we really have to go on is the dedication of the brand to customer satisfaction. Many of the brands we see today have little or no history, or have been separated from their history by sale (eg Ontario, Western and Camillus). That's the problem I see with Swiss Tech.

 

[Shanghai McCoy]

There seems to be a fine line between "inexpensive" and "cheap" but it also seems like China is the source for both.
And Yes, I have some inexpensive made in China knives that I use and carry.

 

[gobsauce]

The kind of testing that would tell you everything you want to know about heat treat would be destructive testing. You can test hardness without destroying the blade and that would provide some information, but toughness testing is going to be destructive. There is technology out there that one could use to determine if a blade is made from the steel that is claimed, but it is expensive and doesn't really provide any information about the heat treat.

When we compare knife steels in finished products, we have to make a lot of assumptions. If both knives are quality products made by companies that stand behind their merchandise then maybe those assumptions are reasonable and we can do our comparison based on the composition of the steel itself with some reasonable chance of getting it right. Otherwise we have virtually no chance of being right.

People will tell you that the most important quality of a knife blade is the heat treat. I'm going to tell you right now while that might be correct, it's not useful information because testing the heat treat on a finished knife is not feasible. The most important quality of a knife blade is the dedication of the manufacturer to integrity and to providing quality products. That's really all you have to go on. That's what gives you confidence that the blade is made from the steel that matches the advertising, the confidence that it's been heat treated properly, that the geometry is appropriate for the use, that the quality control of the steel is good.

That's why it's so important to be sure that you're buying from a good company.

An SEM doesn't tell you what material it's made from, at least not the one in the NanoMIL.

Maybe I can reach out to Roberson in MBME, he supposedly has a fancy SEM that can do something similar, no cleanroom or anything.

What I can do is take a knife, remove a sample and take some measurements, like XRD or FTIR/ATR to get an idea of what it's actually composed of.

 

[ilbob]

There seems to be a fine line between "inexpensive" and "cheap" but it also seems like China is the source for both.
And Yes, I have some inexpensive made in China knives that I use and carry.

You can often have inexpensive but serviceable knives if you are willing to go for lower grade on finishing. Very much like other hand tools. Snap On is maybe the prettiest, but Harbor Freight is more than good enough for the vast majority of what most people need tools for.

There must still be people buying Snap On as I saw a Snap On truck getting gas yesterday while I was there gassing up. I bet that vehicle is the better part of half a million bucks. Got to sell a lot of expensive tools to pay for that vehicle.