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SBR if barrel must be first removed to remove silencer?

Discussion in 'NFA Firearms and Accessories' started by JustinJ, Mar 11, 2014.

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  1. JustinJ

    JustinJ Member

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    I have an idea for a device which would require removal of the barrel before a thread on silencer could be removed. If said barrel was under 16" but longer than with the silencer, would said weapon still be an NFA item?

    To clarify, while installed, the silencer could not be removed from the sub 16" barrel. To remove the silencer, the barrel would have to first be removed from the rifle, thus allowing removal of the silencer retainer device, and then the silencer unthreaded to remove. Obviously the short barrel would not be installed without the silencer.
     
  2. roklok

    roklok Member

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    I would suggest writing the BATF FTB and getting an answer in writing straight from the horses mouth, so to speak. They are generally prompt and helpful in their responses.

    We could all speculate, but the bottom line is they would have to approve it.
     
  3. dogtown tom

    dogtown tom Member

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    Yes, because a suppressor is an NFA firearm.
    If you are asking if an SBR tax stamp would also be required, it depends on the barrel length and OAL. The barrel length is measured from bolt face to muzzle (ATF describes using a rod inserted into the barrel with the bolt closed, mark rod at muzzle, withdraw rod and measure from end to mark)

    If your firearm looks like this:
    Stock-Receiver-Suppressor-Barrel as long as the distance from bolt face to muzzle is 16" AND has an OAL of at least 26" it is not an SBR......if PERMANENTLY attached.

    For example: it is not uncommon for guys to build an "M4orgery".........trying to build an M4 carbine lookalike without need for an SBR tax stamp. to do this they use a shorter than 16" bbl......but permanently install a loooong flashhider to meet the 16" barrel length.
     
  4. zoom6zoom

    zoom6zoom Member

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    If the barrel can be reinstalled without the supressor, yes, it would still be an SBR.
     
  5. Carl N. Brown

    Carl N. Brown Member

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    To be counted in the overal length, ATF requires that the muzzle extension (flash hider, muzzle brake, silencer or dummy silencer, add-on choke for a shotgun etc.) be permanently attached in such a manner that the only practical way of removal (if you read their recommended attachment guidelines) is to cut it off.
     
  6. Arizona_Mike

    Arizona_Mike Member

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    I don't know what your mechanism is. It might end up meeting the perminently attached standard but potentially have constructive possession issues.

    If you only want to use it with a silencer, a perm attached barrel extension that the silencer goes inside might be more practical.

    Mike
     
  7. Kurt_D

    Kurt_D Member

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    Short & sweet - if the <16" barrel and suppressor are "permanently" attached, and the overall length is >16", measured from the bolt face, then the barrel can not turn the rifle into a SBR, unless the over all length of the entire rifle becomes <26" w/ stock fully extended if applicable. The suppressor, like a flash hider or brake become one with the barrel at that point. Of course the suppressor is still a NFA item and is treated as such.

    "permanently" is usually defined as welding, soldering, blind pinning (pinned and welded over)

    If you have a <16" barrel you wish to use with a suppressor and don't want to "permanently" attach them together; you will have to register the rifle as a SBR and pay the tax on it and the suppressor. Having the <16" barrel and the rifle it's for in your possession could be considered constructive intent, depending on how "easy" the barrel swap is. Especially since the barrel could be installed minus the suppressor.

    Loop holes that you could use are: as someone mentioned, pinning on the barrel a sleeve or cover that the suppressor would fit into bring the OAL to >16" without the suppressor. Pinning the baffle stack to the barrel as a "brake/flash hider" and then having the suppressor tube screwed on when you want it; see SIG's new pistol carbines/sub-guns. Either way the barrel would have to stay 16" without the suppressor.
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2014
  8. JustinJ

    JustinJ Member

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    Obviously a suppressor is an NFA item. My question however, is about the rifle.

    That's my biggest concern. I'm looking at something which will let me run my .45 Osprey on my UMP conversion while waiting on the stamp.

    Do you know this or is this speculation? The fact that a short barrel can be installed on a gun does not make it an SBR by default. The point is that in my configuration, the barrel is stuck at 16" while installed. I can see one arguing it could classify as intent but a gun is not an SBR unless it has an installed barrel less than 16" long. The question is if said device would meet the definition of permanently attached. The term is somewhat of a misnomer as even a pinned/welded flash hider can be removed so is not truly permanent.

    That's actually a really good idea. Won't be practical for my situation but for one with a QD 5.56 suppressor such would be pretty useful if one wanted to run it on a short barrel while avoiding the tax stamp and being able to mount on other weapons.
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2014
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