Schuetzen Vs. GoEx

Discussion in 'Blackpowder' started by SlowFuse, Mar 23, 2022.

  1. SlowFuse

    SlowFuse Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2011
    Messages:
    1,618
    Location:
    Heart of Dixie
    Has anyone compared accuracy/burn characteristics of Schuetzen powder versus the standard red label Goex?

    I have bought Schuetzen recently because of the GoEx situation, the Schuetzen seems to be what's available right now. I have noticed it seems much dirtier especially with heavier charges... In my .69 smoothbores it develops crunchy hard fouling rings in the bore and is quite hard to get the range rod down to run a patch, even when the patch is water soaked. I've got a couple stuck even when I switched to very thin patches. I never had this problem with GoEx. In rifled bores I don't notice the same level of hard fouling (patches are noticeably dirtier) but I lube the inside cavity and outside bands of the minie balls I use, so I suspect that's helping. The round balls in the smooth bore don't hold much if any usable lube so I think that's part of the problem. I still roll them in 50/50 beeswax/Crisco. Shooting a roughed up bare ball, no patch.

    I'm curious also on the burn rate vs Goex. I haven't been able to chronograph the loads but was wondering if it is producing similar pressure/velocity as my old GoEx loads. Has anyone tested these two side by side or know of any articles on the subject? I use 3F in the .54, .58 and .69 bore sizes.
     
    Seiyoujin likes this.
  2. Patocazador

    Patocazador Member

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2012
    Messages:
    5,507
    Location:
    Central Florida
    In my smaller caliber rifles (.45 & .50) I found that 3F Schuetzen (Graf's) was cleaner shooting than 3F Goex.

    I understand that Graf's store brand now is Goex however, this was before the change.
     
    SlowFuse and Captain*kirk like this.
  3. Malachi Leviticus Blue

    Malachi Leviticus Blue Member

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2012
    Messages:
    1,698
    Location:
    Michigan
    Graf's changed from Schuetzen to Goex maybe a year or so ago (maybe more, I'm old)
    Now they are back to Schuetzen again

    I have used mostly Schuetzen for maybe the last 10ish years and have NOT found it to be dirtier than Goex, just the opposite.
    I don't have a chrono so I can't speak to actual velocities.
     
    Seiyoujin, Patocazador and SlowFuse like this.
  4. Navy Six 2

    Navy Six 2 Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2017
    Messages:
    144
    This question has come up several times over the years. The responses seem to be mixed--some think Schuetzen burns cleaner and others claimed Goex did. Many also claimed to notice no difference at all. These responses have generally been related to both powders performance in percussion pistols and pistol caliber cartridge guns.
     
    SlowFuse likes this.
  5. SomebodyMakeRiderRepro

    SomebodyMakeRiderRepro Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2021
    Messages:
    68
    Location:
    Chouteau County, MT
    The velocities between the two are more or less the same as far as I can tell.
     
    SlowFuse likes this.
  6. Captain*kirk

    Captain*kirk Member

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2010
    Messages:
    873
    Location:
    Waukegan, IL
    I've been informed the new Graf's brand is Wano...
     
    Seiyoujin, hawg and Patocazador like this.
  7. SlowFuse

    SlowFuse Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2011
    Messages:
    1,618
    Location:
    Heart of Dixie
    Have you used it in muzzleloaders or BP cartridges? Or both?
     
  8. hawg

    hawg Member

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2011
    Messages:
    2,085
    Location:
    Mississippi
    Kind of a moot point since there will be no more Goex unless Estes uses the same name and recipe.
     
  9. Malachi Leviticus Blue

    Malachi Leviticus Blue Member

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2012
    Messages:
    1,698
    Location:
    Michigan
    Wano is imported by Schuetzen
    Schuetzen is Wano
     
    Blackpowderwarrior likes this.
  10. Malachi Leviticus Blue

    Malachi Leviticus Blue Member

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2012
    Messages:
    1,698
    Location:
    Michigan
    Muzzleloaders only
    Rifles, pistols, shotguns and revolvers

    I have yet to load cartridges with anything but smokeless, but the time is coming.
     
  11. dave951

    dave951 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2018
    Messages:
    578
    Location:
    NC
    I use the high end Schuetzen (Swiss) in competition shooting Civil War era arms and have zero issues. I suggest you look to your lube.
     
  12. SlowFuse

    SlowFuse Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2011
    Messages:
    1,618
    Location:
    Heart of Dixie
    Swiss from what I understand is much cleaner than the regular Schuetzen, so not surprising.

    If you shoot smoothbore in N-SSA what's your lube process for these?
     
  13. paul harm

    paul harm Member

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2018
    Messages:
    730
    Twenty years ago when I shot in a lot of matches, when shooting the smooth bore I'd load it like my bird loads with shot. Powder, then a .135 over powder card, a 1/2" wet cushion wad, the round ball, then a .030 overshot card. It was a .715 ball in a .725 bore. The wet cushion wad would kind a clean the bore of fouling every shot. I did remove the spur from the ball so it didn't matter which way it went in. It shot more accurate than a patched RB and I don't know why. If you have a loading bench, a coffee can with soapy water is used. Just let the wads sit in it for a while. If shooting woods walks I'd just keep one or two in my mouth, wetting them with spit.
     
    SlowFuse likes this.
  14. dave951

    dave951 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2018
    Messages:
    578
    Location:
    NC
    I shoot a repop of an 1842 Macon, essentially a cutdown 1842 Springfield. Bore is .691. Load is 685 round ball, 65g 3f Swiss, RWS caps. I weigh each ball after casting and recast anything more than 1gr off.

    To make a round, I pour the charge into the charge tube and then put a ball into the end as a stopper. Ball is sprue up and halfway protruding from the tube. I dip the exposed part of the ball three times in my normal musket lube, beeswax/lard.

    To load, pop the ball out, pour in powder, place ball on muzzle lube side down, ram home, cap and fire. Since we speed shoot in the N-SSA, the short time the lube being in contact with the powder doesn't matter. This load in my gun can put every shot into a playing card at 25yd with no fouling issues.
     
  15. SlowFuse

    SlowFuse Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2011
    Messages:
    1,618
    Location:
    Heart of Dixie
    Thanks Dave! I may try this method of dipping the ball. I roll the whole thing in melted musket lube now and put a pc of wax paper in the tube to keep powder from sticking. Same powder charge as you're using but not swiss.

    I'm in the Deep South region. Shooting a repro 42 as well, full length barrel.
     
  16. dave951

    dave951 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2018
    Messages:
    578
    Location:
    NC
    From what I've seen in our smoothbore competition, probably the most effective solution to accuracy is to have the ball very close to bore diameter, and by that, I mean within .005 meaning your windage is on the order of .003. Having to dimple or rough the ball means the ball is way to small. I stumbled onto this when I bought a mold on a chance. The ball as cast from my mold is .685. It was too large for the owner's smoothbore so he sold the mold to me. I took the chance it would work and shazam! I've tried roughing the ball, wax paper, etc all with balls that were .680 or less and only had so so results. With this mold, experimentation and the loading procedure, I really love my smoothbore.

    25yd offhand target with the described load. No wiping, 1 called flyer and the 42 Macon I shot it from.
    42Macon.jpg
     
    SlowFuse likes this.
  17. Driftwood Johnson

    Driftwood Johnson Member

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2011
    Messages:
    6,046
    Location:
    Land of the Pilgrims
    Howdy

    It has been a real long time since I have shot any Cap & Ball. Even longer since I have fired a Flintlock.

    Most of my Black Powder experience for the last 20 years or so has been in cartridges; 45 Colt, 45 Schofield, 44-40, 44 Russian, 38-40, and 45-70.

    I changed from Goex to Schuetzen a number of years ago because I felt it burned cleaner than Goex. Personal opinion based on how much fouling needed to be cleaned.

    Over the years the relative prices of Goex and Schuezen have varied a bit, but they have always been pretty similar.

    I have never tried Swiss because it is considerably more expensive than either of the other two. When one is shooting Cowboy Action with cartridges loaded with Black Powder, one goes through a lot of powder every year and Goex and Schuetzen were always good enough for me. Everything I have always read about Swiss is it leaves less fouling behind because it is made with a better grade of charcoal.

    Not sure if it can be read in this photo, but Schuetzen is manufactured in Germany by Wano Schwarzpulver. I don't speak German, but I'm pretty sure Schwarzpulver means Black Powder.

    po0J3SiMj.jpg
     
    SlowFuse and Seiyoujin like this.
  18. hawg

    hawg Member

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2011
    Messages:
    2,085
    Location:
    Mississippi
    Scheutzen sells Swiss they don't make it. Sheutzen is made in Germany and Swiss is made in Switzerland.
     
  19. dave951

    dave951 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2018
    Messages:
    578
    Location:
    NC
    In SASS, you don't need Swiss unless you want the less fouling part. Generally speaking, most Cowboy Action isn't that concerned with the best possible accuracy.
     
  20. Lyle

    Lyle Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2010
    Messages:
    244
    Location:
    Arizona
    According to google translate you are correct, black powder.
     
  21. Driftwood Johnson

    Driftwood Johnson Member

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2011
    Messages:
    6,046
    Location:
    Land of the Pilgrims
    That is why I have never tried Swiss. In CAS the targets are up close, not much accuracy is required.

    Clean up after shooting two revolvers, a rifle and a shotgun with Schuetzen is messy, but no big deal.
     
  22. hawg

    hawg Member

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2011
    Messages:
    2,085
    Location:
    Mississippi
    If I can't get Swiss I use Pyrodex.
     
    woodnbow likes this.
  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice