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Scientific Cane Damage

Discussion in 'Non-Firearm Weapons' started by Puncha, Aug 7, 2010.

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  1. Puncha

    Puncha Member

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    Using accelerometers, ballistics gel bodies and high speed cameras, the people who produce the "deadliest warrior" series at spike seem to be able to derive an indication of the damage potential of various hand weapons. But to those here who are familiar with hardwood oak and hickory canes, exactly how much damage would the following moves do if they were delivered by your average 175lb individual with average strength and skill?

    i)A hard thrust to the ribs using the both hands done "rifle and bayonet" style?
    ii)Holding the cane with both hands near the crook and swinging it down hard on an attacker's head?
    iii)Using the crook in lieu of a rifle's butt and attempting to perform a butt-stoke to the Jaw with both hands?
    iv)Using one hand and holding the cane near the crook while delivering a strike to an attacker's bare shin?
    v) any other striking cane moves you can think of......

    will any bones be broken?
     
  2. Oyeboten

    Oyeboten Member

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    I would think "Yes", a Jaw, Ribs could be broken by this, or possibly even a Skull could be fractured by this.

    The larger diameter the Cane, the better, of course ( within practical limits of say, around one inch or a little better would probably be ideal, ) for those outcomes to be realized.


    I used to carry two foot worth of old Double Bitted Axe Handle section....tight ring 1st Growth Hickory, 1-1/2 inch by about 7/8ths I suppose...ovoid in section.


    You just heft that or swing it lightly into your palm, and, you know you could crack a Skull or break an Arm or a Jaw no problem.

    More a swinging item than a Jabbing one though with it's length being on the short side.
     
  3. nalioth

    nalioth Member

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    You're kidding, right?

    You will definitely break bones using a cane in this manner, if not cause death in some instances.
     
  4. bikerdoc

    bikerdoc Moderator Staff Member

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    Yes.

    And with some training you wont even break a sweat
     
  5. MikeJackmin

    MikeJackmin Member

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    I'm guessing it depends a lot upon the specific cane. For swinging blows, a cane made of a hard, heavy material with a narrow profile on the striking surface can do a lot of damage. A lighter, rounder cane, not so much. The effectiveness of jabs will also vary depending on the material and diameter of the cane's tip.
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2010
  6. hso

    hso Moderator Staff Member

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    Yes
    Yes
    Yes
    No, too big a bone to be assured of a break.
     
  7. Puncha

    Puncha Member

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  8. hso

    hso Moderator Staff Member

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    Hardly any difference for the average user since they don't have the control.
     
  9. MutinousDoug

    MutinousDoug Member

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    Before you spend money on an exotic "tactical" cane, check out your local or internet farm and ranch store for a "stock cane" they are hickory, 5'0" or so long and much more stout than any drug store fare. Cut to suitable length and open up the crook a little bit (cut off the end an inch or so) if you plan on swinging it.
    HTH
     
  10. hso

    hso Moderator Staff Member

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    Since Puncha isn't in the US he won't be able to take our advice to run down to the farm supply, but everyone else should be sure to sort out whether the stock canes you're looking at are oak or hickory since sometime the feed store may be carrying oak stock canes.
     
  11. Deltaboy

    Deltaboy Member

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    My homemade cane with the solid Brass Mule Harnness Head on it has cracked two mean dogs skulls so far. :evil:
     
  12. CWL

    CWL Member

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    Puncha, you have access to all manner of "exotic" hardwoods in SE Asia that we'd drool over here in the USA. If local cane retailers don't carry anything suitable, then find a lumber supplier that will lathe or hand-shape (recommend 6-8 sided)a cane for you, certainly cheap enough in your part of the world.
     
  13. LHRGunslinger

    LHRGunslinger Member

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    The Irish developed an entire martial art around a very specific cane/walking stick known as a Shillelagh. It is just as much a gentlemans weapon as it is a thugs weapon. It was known to damn near tear limbs off not just break bones.

    Ah the joys of being 6'2 240 and being able to walk down the street with a bludgeon in hand.
     
  14. lloveless

    lloveless Member

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    Yep, a good stock cane of hickory is a fine thing to walk/wield.
    ll
     
  15. scythefwd

    scythefwd Member

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    A good black locust cane will do some real damage. I have a little bit of training, so this is not typical. Using a 5 ft, instead of a 3 ft, staff, I was able to snap or crack the staff pretty consistently using momentum and a sudden stop (overhead swing, like you would see with a sword coming down from shoulder to opposite hip). I would be holding the back 1/3rd of the staff, and the break would almost always occur a few inches in front of my front hand. I had to move to a purple heart, laminated cocobolo, or a mystery wood (we think it might have been Japanese oak) staff to keep me from breaking them. Anything as light as maple would only last about a month of me working out with it..

    That said, a 3ft - 3.5ft long traditional cane with a hook end will make one hell of a club in the right wood. A cocobolo cane would have some good weight and density for the 1-1.25 inches I would expect to see in a cane. With an overhead clubbing action, there are few bones I wouldn't expect it to break. The shin being one of them. With proper technique, a backhand type swing to the shin (assuming body twist, and general movement of the body towards the victim) might cause a fracture, it might not. The person probably won't be standing on that leg though. You could possibly drive the leg right out from under them.

    i)A hard thrust to the ribs using the both hands done "rifle and bayonet" style?
    - Use the crook with your back hand and you can easily break ribs (I've seen 1 inch boards broken with a rolled up newspaper in the same fashion)

    ii)Holding the cane with both hands near the crook and swinging it down hard on an attacker's head?
    - You'll cave his head in if you make contact, you'll recover quicker and be more agile if you do it one handed with similar results (open head wound with a possible cracked skull)

    iii)Using the crook in lieu of a rifle's butt and attempting to perform a butt-stoke to the Jaw with both hands?
    - Either end will do, but it will have less effect than a swing. You'll only get that end moving a little quicker than a punch. Your hand is protected, but if you can reach your opponent with a punch, he can reach you. Keep your distance if you can, that is why you have that 3 ft stick.

    iv)Using one hand and holding the cane near the crook while delivering a strike to an attacker's bare shin?
    - I've seen baseball bats broken on shins and the person walked away. Granted, he worked up to that over years of abuse to his shins. You'll most likely cause one hell of a knot. You might take the leg out from under him. You might break your cane. If you break your cane.. see item #1... Your cane doesn't stop being a weapon because it was unexpectedly shortened.

    v) any other striking cane moves you can think of......
    - learn basic fencing techniques. Your cane is a bludgeon, not a precision instrument. Use your back and core muscles to primarily pull the cane through the strike, not your arm muscles.
     
  16. Digger Odell

    Digger Odell Member

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    I remember my grandfather & my dad both carrying what was called an auction cane when they went to horse auctions. It was about 3/8 to 1/2 inch dia. & very flexible. They would use it to check various animals in different ways. It would never break any bones but sure could raise one heck of a welt. The crooked handle could also cause a lot of trouble to someone on the wrong end when used knowingly.
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2010
  17. Carne Frio

    Carne Frio Member

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    When I lived in New Mexico, a neighbor of mine
    had one made out of 5/8th rebar, bent just like
    a regular cane, painted light brown with a rubber
    tip. He carried when walking to fend off dogs and
    other critters and was very happy with it.
     
  18. Deltaboy

    Deltaboy Member

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    Now that would be a TOUGH Cane.
     
  19. Puncha

    Puncha Member

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    Dear guys,

    Canemasters is touting their pure hickory heart canes as being tougher then their other oak or "normal" hickory canes. Is this true? Are the canes from the core of the tree really tougher?

    More importantly, will these core canes be denser and have more damage potential?

    Or should I just get a cane made out of ironwood?
     
  20. Deltaboy

    Deltaboy Member

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    Canemasters does a lot of Cold Steel Hype.
     
  21. NMPOPS

    NMPOPS Member

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    I would recommend against head strike unless its the only target you have. cane use would be very similar to police baton use. The head is always a "no strike" zone. Solar plexas jabs, leg and arm strikes, collar bone all good areas and will put someone down without permanent damage, Jabs to the top of the instep are good also.
     
  22. scythefwd

    scythefwd Member

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    Puncha - Any hickory cane will do serious damage if you want it to. If you want an ironwood cane, get one. I'd look into a ippe, eppe, ippey, hell... I don't know how it's spelled cane. Pretty, hard, and it just feels nice in the hand.
     
  23. hso

    hso Moderator Staff Member

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    Hardness and density are not the only characteristics needed for a cane. It needs a long flexible grain that resists breaking when struck against something hard. You don't want something that will snap.
     
  24. bikerdoc

    bikerdoc Moderator Staff Member

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    Not to be a wise guy, cause nobody likes to get into it more than me IF I have to, but lets think about the other side of the coin. Sure you can carry a real hard cane and have a lot of training, but maybe we should be more aware of how to avoid trouble.

    Just my .02 from a different perspective
     
  25. shockwave

    shockwave Member

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    From what I've seen at their website, pretty much any Canemasters cane would get the job done. I don't have one, so I can't verify that, but their products look good.

    That's a difficult question to answer. Let's say you have a target set up, like a punching bag. You're going to try this technique on the bag.

    Style 1: You jab the stick forward with both arms at the bag.

    Style 2: You step or lean forward and as your weight moves toward the target you torque your hips and wind up from the waist, then twist forward sharply and let the wave travel up your spine, through your shoulders and out your arms, adding muscle at the last moment and deliver all your weight and power through the end of the stick.

    The effect on the target will be substantially different between the two types of strike. It isn't an either/or situation, either.

    Depending on how much of Style 2 you can execute, maybe just the weight transfer, or maybe only the hip action, you can greatly enhance the force of your strike.

    This thinking applies to all the other strikes you mention.
     
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