Scope mounting question

Discussion in 'Long Gun Accessories and Optics' started by mrbladedude, Feb 15, 2017.

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  1. mrbladedude

    mrbladedude Member

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    On a Winchester Model 70, I have decided to get the Badger Ordnance rail and scope mounts. There are 3 options with the rail. Long, short and short magnum action scope rail. Which one is suitable for the Model 70 in 30-06? As for the rings, the lower the better correct? Should I get the medium ones or their smallest size on this particular firearm?

    Some say if the rings are too low they will interfere with the bolt. So looking for advice for a Model 70 specifically.

    Scope is a Leupold VX-2 3-9x40mm with a bdc reticle

    As for the Model 70, does it come with a standard barrel length or do I get to choose? Interest in the Super Grade or the Featherweight.
     
  2. Robert

    Robert Administrator Staff Member

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    OK, why the rail? It will just get in the way, or at least to me it would. But if you want one go for it. A 30-06 will need the long rail.

    I run Leupold bases with low Burris Z rings of my 375 H&H Safari Express for a VX3 2.5-8x36. I have no issues with bolt interference. I think a 40mm objective will require medium rings but I am not 100% sure on that. I know there is not much room under my objective and I don't think a larger one would fit.

    The barrel length is set by Winchester at the factory, there are no custom choices that I am aware of.

    I love my M70 but be aware the bedding can be absolute junk. Having it bedded by a good smith is well worth the money. Mine went from patterning like a shotgun to one ragged hole.
     
  3. mrbladedude

    mrbladedude Member

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    I was under the impression that a rail was required to mount the rings on
     
  4. Robert

    Robert Administrator Staff Member

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    The receiver on the M70 is drilled and tapped for for bases. You can use a rail if you want but bases work fine for hunting. I've never had any issues with the shifting of loss of accuracy on my 375.

    I guess the big question is, are you building a hunting rifle or a lone range rifle?
     
  5. LoonWulf
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    LoonWulf Contributing Member

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    Just to clarify, bases and rail serve the same purpose. The provide you a place to attach your rings to the gun.

    Rails offer you more leeway on where you position the rings in relation to your reciever, and scope...forward or back on either etc.
    They can also allow for built in cant, or vertical offset, of the scope this is important for shooting at longer range. As Robert said, not super useful on a rifle set up as a standard distance hunting rig.

    Bases, on the other hand are simpler, and usually leave your ejection port much more open than a rail, which is preferable in my opinion.
    The usually only offer two points of location for your rings tho, so if you happen to need your scope much farther back, or forward, than normal youll need to address that with special extension rings or extension bases.

    What your looking at putting together imo, would likely be best served with a set of leupold, or other decent rings and basses, probably medium height to be safe tho many 40mms will mount fine in lows.

    If you happen to already have those Badger rings, or just really want to use a rail, no reason not to.

    oh Leupold scopes have relatively small occular (rear) bells compared to alot of other scopes on the market these days, i think they suffer from bolt handle hits less than most. Really what will limit your ring height options will be the objective (front) bell, and 40mms usually go fine on low rings unless they are unusually large like the newer Nikons.

    http://www.brownells.com/GunTech/Ring-Height-Chart/detail.htm?lid=11213

    that can help you figgure out what will work with your set up.
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2017
  6. mrbladedude

    mrbladedude Member

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    Thanks for the replies. Yeah the gun is primarily going to be used for hunting and practicing at the range probably between 50 and 500 yards. I'm still learning about the rifle stuff. I've mainly been into handguns and shotguns for years. This will be my first rifle ( besides my .22 Marlin XT22 that I've owned for years, no scope ).

    So I thought bases and rails were the same thing. Oh boy. Wouldn't a 1 piece base take up as much space as a rail?

    And why would it matter how forward or how far back you mount your scope?
     
  7. Laphroaig

    Laphroaig Member

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    One piece bases are generally cut out some, aka thinner, over the loading/ejection ports. A rail is the same width over its length.

    Scope eye relief falls into a limited range of distance. You want the scope positioned so your eye will fall into that range when the rifle is normally, and comfortably, mounted to your shoulder. If it isn't, you will have to unnaturally crane your neck to get within the eye relief zone.
     
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  8. .308 Norma

    .308 Norma Member

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    That's one of the most clear and concise answers I've ever seen an internet gun forum. Especially seeing as how it was a rather complicated question.
    I'd like to add - if there is not enough eye relief (the distance from your eyeball to the scope) when that 30-06 goes off, the recoil is going to drive that Leopold VX-2 back into your eyebrow. Some, more experienced shooters have been known to taunt an inexperienced shooter because the inexperienced shooter has what is called a "scope-eye." It's not funny. It could, and has required stiches sometimes.
    But mrbladedude, I have a question for you - won't the place where you're buying your rifle mount the scope for you? Most of the gun shops/gun stores I know about will mount and bore sight scopes for free.
     
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  9. jmr40

    jmr40 Member

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    For your uses get either Talley Lightweights or DNZ Game reaper mounts. They both incorporate the base into the bottom ring. One less thing to go wrong..They are lightweight, less than 3 oz, and reasonably priced. You want low's. I like the Talley's a little better.

    The rails are a good idea on a tactical or sniper rifle. They just add weight and complicate issues on a hunting rifle.

    Here is a photo of them on a short action 70 with the same scope you have. Both front and rear rings can be turned in either direction to work with various scopes and action lengths.

    [​IMG]
     
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  10. LoonWulf
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    LoonWulf Contributing Member

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    I second the Talleys I'm slowly converting all my guns to them.

    The answers posted above are excellent!

    If you have some one, or a reputable shop, you can take your gun, scope, and rings/mounts/rail etc. too it might help. Getting everything set up isn't exactly hard, but it really helps to have done it a few times. Also someone whos familiar can help get your scope properly positioned for the correct eye relief.
     
  11. pwillie

    pwillie Member

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    I am partial to DNZ's....line bored mounts...all my model 70's (magnums) plus my hunting buddy's use them on their 30-378 Weatherbys....many hunting seasons and no adjustments..no lapping, no off sights...60-600 yd shots...all the same...my barrels are free floating ,and are very accurate....(cut paper)....all Swarovski Scopes (30) MM
     
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  12. Stubert

    Stubert Member

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    I just installed a 3-9x40 Leupold on my 70 Alaskan. Leupold recomended medium rings. I also went with the quick release rings. Eye relief is 3.7 - 4.2"
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2017
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  13. cdb1

    cdb1 Member

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    I've mounted a bunch of VX-2 3-9x40's. The only time low rings didn't work was with with CZ 550's, milsurps and some rifles with open sights. Don't recall having an issue with M70's that didn't have iron sights.

    About two years ago I started using picatinny rails instead of two piece bases on my bolt action rifles. While I do prefer the looks of two piece bases, so many new scopes have such short tubes the only way I could mount them properly was with a picatinny.
     
  14. Polishrifleman

    Polishrifleman Member

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    The current production Model 70's come in barrel lengths from 20" to 26" depending on the model and performance you are looking for, you will more than likely end up with a 26". To the points of eye relief, scope bite, etc... are real and important especially in a hunting rifle. If you go to the Winchester web site you will see that a majority of their marketing photos have rings with bases. They offer a Vortex XPR that comes with the Vortex scope and Weaver rings and bases.

    The use of a rail as mentioned allows you more adjustment but can get in the way for some users but either type will work just fine. Take your time with the mounting process, don't just level the reticle and screw it down tight, scope bite is real but depending on the caliber you are purchasing it might be a non issue (The Less it Kicks the closer your eyebrow can safely be). The last thing you should do is level, what you need to really work on is bringing the rifle up to firing position and having a full field of view out the scope without making any movements with your head, this will allow for great confidence in the field and the ability to make quick shots. Good luck!
     
  15. pwillie

    pwillie Member

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    I just purchased a "nevel" from DNZ....levels scopes,so you have a true line on your vertical filament..let you know how it works.!
     
  16. mrbladedude

    mrbladedude Member

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    The last time I bought a gun the gun shop wouldn't install the night sights I already had for free on the gun. The only way they would not charge me $60 for the install, is if I bought night sights from them directly.

    So I picked up a sight tool and changed them myself. I also installed an extended slide release on the Glock 20. So after I did these, I like the fact that I know I did it right. I cant question if someone else maybe missed a step or didn't tighten enough etc.

    So I thought maybe I'd mount the scope myself. But it looks expensive to buy the vice and all the other tools required to do the job. And the rifle and accessories are expensive enough for me so I think I'm going to install the base or rail, and then take the scope and the rings to the shop and have them install it
     
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  17. cdb1

    cdb1 Member

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    Is there a Cabela's close to you? When I mounted scopes there it was free if you bought the optic or firearm from them. If not the charge was $25.00. I very rarely charged the $25.00, basically only if the customer was a jerk. I've only been gone since November so I'd bet nothing has changed.
     
  18. .308 Norma

    .308 Norma Member

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    If I was in your situation, that's what I'd do too - have the shop install the scope. But you don't need a vice, and for the last 20 years or so, every set of scope rings I've bought came with a little L shaped wrench for tightening the screws - that's the only special tool you really need.
    However, I still recommend that you have a more experienced person install your first scope. Besides, the shop probably has a bore sighter. While not absolutely necessary, bore sighting a scope can save you some time (and ammunition) the first time you take your rifle and new scope to the range.
     
  19. mrbladedude

    mrbladedude Member

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    The rail and scope mounts are going to need a torque wrench to tighten. I would like to mount the rail myself. How would I do this without a vice? I plan to get a level and red loctite it to the receiver.
     
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  20. .308 Norma

    .308 Norma Member

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    Sorry I didn't get back sooner mrbladedude. There's another thread in this section (Long Guns and Accessories) of the forum about using a torque wrench when mounting scopes, scope mounts, etc. And I think it's such a good idea that after about a half century of mounting various rifle scopes and accessories, I'm finally going to get myself a torque wrench that measures inch-pounds. But I've never used one in the past - I guessed at the torque I was putting on the various scope mounting screws, and I've never had a problem.
    As far as needing a vice for mounting a rail, I don't know. I've never mounted one. I've attached a lot of scope mounts to rifles, both one and two piece mounts, but I've never attached a rail. For attaching scope mounts to guns I've always just sat down and laid the rifle across my legs. Occasionally I've had my wife help me hold it.
    I don't know what you need a level for when it comes to mounting a scope, scope mounts and rings, or a rail. But then again, I've never mounted a rail.
    I've used red Loctite while mounting scopes on rifles that I knew were going to have a lot of recoil. In fact, I'm pretty sure I used it for mounting the scope on my .308 Norma. But I'm certain the guy at the gun store where I bought my old 30-06 didn't use Loctite when he mounted the scope. That scope has been on there for 35 or 40 years, and I'd bet dollars to donuts I could take that old rifle out of my gun safe right now and it would be printing 1.25", 3-shot groups, 2" high at 100 yards - right where I left it 3 years ago.:)
     
  21. LoonWulf
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    LoonWulf Contributing Member

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    I use a box with a pair of V's cut in it when i dont have access to a bench vince, or if you have a stable shooting sled. With either you need to be really delicate when tightening screws or moving the scope around. I prefer to get the scope pretty close before putting the gun in my "cradel"

    If you plan on doing any work like this in the future tho id suggest buying a decent bench vice, and getting/making some jaw covers. These help out immensely.

    While i dont feel a torque wrench (or loctite) is horribly necessary for the bases, they arnt a bad idea by any means. What wrench are you getting? Also what are you using to level the scope.
     
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  22. .308 Norma

    .308 Norma Member

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    Ha! I've done that too - in order to bore sight after mounting the scope. Dad gave me a bore sighter many years ago, but before that I used a box with V's cut in it sitting on the dining room table. I'd take the bolt out of the rifle, wedge it in those V's in the box, then peer through the rifle's barrel while carefully moving and adjusting the box until the black tip of a fence post, 200 yards behind the house was centered in the rifle's barrel. Then I'd adjust the scope so that its crosshairs were on that fence post's black tip. The procedure was a genuine PITA, but it worked.:)
    I really must be missing something LoonWulf, because you also mentioned "leveling" the scope. I don't know what you mean. Leveling it with what? I've always figured a scope was already level with the rifle as long as I used the same height rings, both front and back. Am I wrong? Or what am I missing? Thanks.:)
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2017
  23. cdb1

    cdb1 Member

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    All you need is another person if you don't have a vise.
     
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  24. LoonWulf
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    LoonWulf Contributing Member

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    I maybe miss using the term, i ment getting the vertical post reticle post inline with the center of the bore, or leveling both gun and reticle side to side.
    Ive seen guys use a string and bobbin thingy, as well as the comercial "reticle levelers".
    I normally use a small picture hanging lvl that i put across a flat spot on the action, or base. Get that lvl horizontally, then put the scope on and lvl that horizontally by putting the little lvl actoss a cap if its flat...round caps i take them off and put it on the adjustment turret housing.

    One of the commercial levelers is on my list along with the torque wrench lol.

    I used to do the box and fence post thing to, i still do mostly....i need to get a bore sighter also...sooooo many toys, i mean TOOLS, yes, tools i NEED!
     
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  25. cdb1

    cdb1 Member

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    I would NEVER use red loctite on base or ring screws. Use blue.

    I have a couple of bore sighters but they aren't' necessary. The old fashioned way works just as well. The reason I have as much equipment as I do is because I'm doing it for money and bore sighters allow me an ease of convenience. Levels are inexpensive, easy to use but are by no means foolproof. You need a perfectly flat surface on the rifle and one on the scope for levels to work and I've found that isn't the case sometimes. Plumb line method works well. I actually don't even recommend to customers leveling the scope with the rifle anymore but will if they want it. I recommend leveling the scope with gravity. Almost no one holds a rifle level when holding it in the most comfortable position. So why not level the scope to where it looks level when holding the rifle the way it feels best when shouldering it? Many competitive shooters do it that way and if a scope is leveled in that manner, is not level with the rifle. The article below explains it better than I can. A torque screwdriver would be my first purchase and gun vise second.

    http://www.scout.com/military/snipers-hide/story/1540059-canted-rifle-level-scope

    [​IMG]h
     
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