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Self defence, Power VS accuracy

Discussion in 'Handguns: Autoloaders' started by Hunter2011, Aug 23, 2013.

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  1. Hunter2011

    Hunter2011 Member

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    I do want to ask this question, despite the fact it may turn out to be a caliber war. Please no fighting:), just honest answers and opinions.

    Lets say you have only two handguns. One 9mm and one .22 target pistol. We all know the 9mm has more than 400% the power of the .22. That is an undisputed fact and you can never asume that they are equaly effective.

    With the 9mm you really must do your best to even hit a human sized target. So headshots and heart shots will only happen with a lucky shot. With your 22 target pistol, you can really bassically choose where the bullet must hit. Lets say you can handle the stress for arguments sake and will connect where you aim.
    Which of the two is the better option for the person who does not want to buy a new 9mm that can actually shoot just about as accurate as the .22?
     
  2. 1SOW

    1SOW Member

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    The 9mm.
    I have both and shot Bullseye fairly well with the 22LR target pistol I still have.
    Everyone has to determine for themselves, what's the minimum calber they want for self defense. When you do that, buy a decent handgun and learn to shoot it. Some training is well worth the cost with whatever handgun you choose to go with.

    Your post sounded as if you thought 9mm was much harder to shoot accurately at SD distances than .22. That's simply not the case with man-size targets at relatively short distances..

    You asked. I replied based on my experiences. Others will too.
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2013
  3. Comrade Mike

    Comrade Mike Member

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    A hit with a .22 is better than a miss with anything else. That being said, I shoot my 9's just fine
     
  4. Bobson

    Bobson Member

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    As said, and will be said again, a "perfect" shot with a .22 is better than a poor shot with a 9x19. That being said, I can't imagine a situation in which someone could have the ability to make a near-perfect hit with a 22 (even a "target" one), and struggle to hit a human sized target at all with a 9mm. Just doesn't make sense to me. I don't know of a single 9mm handgun in production that's so inaccurate, it would be a challenge to hit a human being at 10 yards because of the gun .
     
  5. jim243

    jim243 Member

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    I shoot IDPA with the 9 mm, they do not allow the 22 LR. That said, it is not hard to be accurate with the 9 mm.

    My choice.
    Jim
     
  6. Hunter2011

    Hunter2011 Member

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    I have a Vector CP1. In my hands, not accurate at all. I just can't shoot it well. Yes, I can hit a human sized target, but with taking time and really trying to shoot accurate. I'm not really asking for myself as I will soon buy a Glock after saving up enough cash.
    Will a .22 not penetrate ribs?
    I once shot a skinned sheep. The meat was going to be given to a lion as the sheep was found dead, reason unknown. I used a .20 PCP airgun. 13.7 grains at 850 fps. I was amazed to see it went straight through both sides of the sheep, penetrating 2 ribs. Of course all the insides, wool and skin was removed allready. But if a airgun, and not a powerfull one at that, can penetrate 2 ribs of a sheep, will a .22 not do the same to human ribs that is in attacking mode?
    I do know that even if it does penetrate it still won't stop the attacker in his tracks like a bigger caliber might do, but still.
     
  7. BLB68

    BLB68 Member

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    I'd suggest moving up to a larger .380 like the Walther PK380 or the Ruger LC380 and trying that before suggesting the hypothetical person use a .22 for SD.

    But come down to it, hits with a .22 trump misses with a 9mm.
     
  8. allaroundhunter

    allaroundhunter Member

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    Hunter, the problem is that if you buy another 9mm you probably won't be any more accurate. I would say take the 9mm to an NRA basic pistol class so that you can learn to shoot it well.

    Obviously, you can tell that my choice is not for the .22.
     
  9. bds

    bds Member

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    Not true for all 9mm pistols.

    No comment.

    You can do the same with some accurate 9mm pistols and deliberate practice. Match shooters do this all the time with 9mm/40S&W/45ACP pistols, even with stock pistols without any modification.

    IMO, a good idea but save some more cash to buy enough ammunition for practice.
     
  10. Tomac

    Tomac Member

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    Shot placement and sufficient penetration are paramount, all else is secondary. Under stress, fine motor control goes out the window so pinpoint accuracy will be impossible. Learn the 9.
    Tomac
     
  11. tarosean

    tarosean Member

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    It could be the gun itself. However what distances are you trying to hit these targets? Most SD situations happens from 0-10yrds. If you cannot hit a B27 from that range. Im not sure what advice I could give you over the internet.. If your located near me I would gladly take you out and show you some basics.
     
  12. The Lone Haranguer

    The Lone Haranguer Member

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    Why does it have to be "either-or?" Why can't you have both the power and the accuracy?
     
  13. usp9

    usp9 Member

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    The question I'd ask is; "Why can't you shoot the 9mm?" What's the difference? If that problem can be solved then you have your answer. If you can't improve your 9mm performance, then perhaps you need to find a gun you can handle better. The Vector CP1 should be accurate enough. The gas system needs proper cleaning and care. Is the gun maintained well?
     
  14. Hunter2011

    Hunter2011 Member

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    Guys, the obvious answer is to get better training and to get a better gun. That was not the question. The question was is a .22 better than a 9mm if you are shooting much much more accurate with the .22? Obviously if you should both equally accurate then the 9mm wins hands down.
    More practice and or training is a valid suggestion. But will it really help in my case? I'm making this statement as I feel I am a good shooter, why else then can I get it right with my .22? No training or practice will make me shoot my 9mm even remotely as accurate as my .22.

    Lets say my wife said, NO MORE GUNS FOR YOU, in a shouting voice. Now if I can't shoot the 9mm accurately, aren't the .22 a better option then? Especially since training and practice will not dramatically increase my accuracy with this particular 9mm.
     
  15. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator

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    .Really?

    Do not confuse target shooting with grabbing your gun under adverse circumstances and shooting very, very quickly at a fast moving person before he causes you serious harm.
     
  16. Sav .250

    Sav .250 Member

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    Close quartes as in self defense, I don`t think your doing much aiming. Plus your not shooting great distances.
    The 22 cal has killed some folks but the 9mm is the much better choice.

    Practice makes perfect!
     
  17. Hanzo581

    Hanzo581 Member

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    Wow, you guys are having a tough time keeping answers within the question of his post. He's asking a pretty basic question.

    Would you take a lesser powerful gun (.22) you are more accurate with over a more powerful gun (9mm) you are less accurate with. He's not asking if you shoot your 9mm accurately or if you were a .22 bullseye shooter.
     
  18. 460Shooter

    460Shooter Member

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    I carry a .45 or a 357 depending on the day. I am proficient with both.

    If I shot a .32 acp much more accurately, then I would carry that.
     
  19. beatledog7

    beatledog7 Member

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    I'm trying to imagine a .22LR "target" pistol that would be concealable. I'd have to open carry mine on a sling of some kind; I have no holster for a scoped Buckmark.
     
  20. Carl N. Brown

    Carl N. Brown Member

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    Power is useless if you miss (unless it scares an attacker or intruder into running away, but remember you missed: no warning shots allowed in most jurisdictions).

    Accuracy is good for defense but accuracy with power is better.

    Misses increase the potential of collateral damage to unintended targets.

    I would work toward accuracy with power, 9mm or .38spl+P or better.

    I have no illusions of replicating my target performance with my MarkII .22 Ruger pistol in a combat situation. I expect accuracy under stress to be like my scores in the black powder cartridge match pistol stages of rapid fire 6 shots in two minutes stationary target and three tries at 2 shots in two seconds on a turning target. Rapid score half the slowfire score, turner score a third to a sixth the slowfire score.
     
  21. ku4hx

    ku4hx Member

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    As far as "hit accuracy" is concerned, if it's that much of a real world problem, get a [legal] short barrel shotgun and stoke it with you're particular choice for defensive ammunition. Train to use it and be satisfied it's a good choice. If the only hand gun you can consistently and reliable shoot accurately is a .22LR then OK, for carry say, go with that. If that's still too much get a baseball bat and a big dog.

    Protecting your self is just that ... protecting yourself. If you can't shoot well enough (for whatever reason) to use a traditional combat hand gun with combat accuracy, you're already handicapped. But, I've met very few people over the years who couldn't be trained to shoot a center fire hand gun well enough to be assured in their minds they could do what had to be done.

    The old saying, "Where there's a will; there's a way" has great relevance. If the determination is there, learning is pretty much a certainly. Otherwise, get a bat & dog.
     
  22. Double Naught Spy

    Double Naught Spy Sus Venator

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    Hunter2011, I sense some disparity in your statements. You are a good shooter, but can't shoot 9mm? Are you physically handicapped in some manner? 9mm is not a difficult round to shoot, even for less than good shooters.

    If training and practice will not improve your shooting such that you can shoot 9mm accurate, then there is something wrong with you. It may just be a mental block, but there is no reason to believe that you are so good that practice and training won't help you to improve, yet you can't shoot 9mm very well.

    Sell the Vector and get a better pistol. Even if you can shoot .22 better right now, .22 lr is not a good defensive cartridge, not just because of the small caliber and lack of power, but because of the less than reliable rimfire ignition system.
     
  23. TarDevil

    TarDevil Member

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    I think he's getting some sound responses. If the OP's question is purely hypothetical, then the discussion goes one way. If the OP genuinely wants a gun for protection, I'd pay attention to what everyone is saying.

    9mm's aren't hard at all to shoot. I recently let a total newbie shoot my Ruger... after some pointers on grip, stance and sight picture, she knocked the center of the target out with her 2nd magazine from 7 yards. Her first time with a handgun of any type. Did the same thing to a gal last year who had only shot a .32 revolver (and not very well).

    If the OP is struggling with a 9mm, some instruction would go a long way.
     
  24. Skylerbone

    Skylerbone Member

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    My advice would be to send that 9mm back for repair if it is that inaccurate. If no satisfaction were received, sell it and buy two new 9mms.

    My 9 yr. old son is getting minute of squirrel head good with a .22 lr but is scared silly of centerfire pistols. Plenty of people have a similar reaction, induced flinch, increased noise, increased recoil. More likely culprits than inaccurate gun.
     
  25. ATLDave

    ATLDave Member

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    Taking the shooters' relative skill as a fixed given, as the OP seems to want, this is a pretty simple problem:

    1. A miss does nothing. If you cannot get hits at all with a certain gun, then that gun may as well not exist. Any gun that you cannot get any kind of hits with is a non-starter.
    2. A shot PERFECTLY placed will have a high likelihood of success with anything that exceeds about 600fps. But perfect hits are hard to come by under stress, against a moving target, and with a target that is attacking you.
    3. The differentiator, then, is not misses, nor is it PERFECT* hits. It's the "acceptable" hits. A 9mm that misses the aorta by 2" is likely to be more effective than a .22 that does the same.

    That means that you have to compare the DEGREE of misses with the more-capable caliber, and the RELATIVE effectiveness for "acceptable" hits. To put it in USPSA terms, there's a reason that major and minor score 5 points on A's, but different points on C's. How many A's are you giving up by going to a more powerful caliber? And how many "points" are you losing on the C's and D's that you shoot with the smaller one?

    The OP may not know either of these things. The board can help with the latter, if asked directly. ONLY the OP can know the former, but probably needs to actually test and measure himself to know, rather than just go with gut reactions.

    P.S. I agree with those who say there's no reason for anyone to not be able to get reasonably accurate with a decent 9mm.

    * Note that even "perfect" hits don't always work. Jim Cirillo wrote of having MULTIPLE .38spl rounds skip off the skull of his opponents in gunfights.
     
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