Quantcast
  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Self Defense .410 shot vs .45 LC vs .410 slugs

Discussion in 'Shotguns' started by scalper, Apr 16, 2008.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. scalper

    scalper Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2008
    Messages:
    147
    Location:
    Greenwood, Missouri
    Since I am my family's resident firearm expert (not by choice), my cousin recently approached me about ammo choices for his .410/.45 LC pistol he keeps in his car for self defense on the road. Of course, I told him a .357 magnum or something similar might be a better choice for the car and a 12 gauge for the house. Not willing to consider these, he simply wants to know the best choices for ammo in his favorite pistol. Lets assume that any encounter will be up close and personal.

    So here it is for your discussion. As a self defense pistol, which would be best:

    .410 shot
    .45 LC
    .410 slug

    Any ideas? I would appreciate it if you can be specific to brands and sizes and of course, reason. I have been leaning towards a Federal or Winchester .410 slug (88 grains) or 45LC (as hot as the gun allows). He seems to like the idea of shot. Thanks in advance.
     
  2. Sergeant Sabre

    Sergeant Sabre Member

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2004
    Messages:
    1,202
    Location:
    Michigan
    .45 Colt. Something 200 to 240gr and a hollow or soft point.

    A .410 slug is too wimpy to penetrate adequately. The buckshot is too wimpy, also.
     
  3. zxcvbob

    zxcvbob Member

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2007
    Messages:
    5,061
    Location:
    S.E. Minnesota
    .45 Colt loaded kind-of warm, with 250 or 255 grain soft lead bullets.

    .410 loaded with 000 buckshot is no slouch either. I don't remember if it's got 3 or 5 pellets.
     
  4. rc135

    rc135 Member

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2006
    Messages:
    174
    Location:
    Near the Rockies
    Colt

    1st: .45 Colt a big first choice.
    2nd: The 410 bore with a 110-grain, hard-cast RWS/Dynamit Nobel slug
    (not the various 90-grain foster-type slugs out there) would be fine.
    3rd: 410 000 or 00 buckshot.
    NO to birdshot altogether.
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2008
  5. Okiecruffler

    Okiecruffler Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2002
    Messages:
    3,351
    Location:
    Del City, Okla
    45LC, hands down. The .410 is not a great bird gun in a long barrel. Shorten the barrel and use it on something looking to damage you?
     
  6. stephpd

    stephpd Member

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2007
    Messages:
    107
    Location:
    Wilmington, DE
    Judge?

    Got one of those myself and did a little research. By far a warm round in 45 colt with a jhp is the safest bet. Next would be the .410 000 buckshot, three pellets can do SOME damage at close range. Won't go deep enough to hit vital organs. Most slugs for .410 are rifled and don't fit the barrel tightly.Not sure any slug of .410 will fit a barrel of .452 tight enough to be effective.

    But it's fun to shoot up paper targets and make a lot of noise at the range. 5 rounds or #4 shot shreds up the targets as well as the cardboard backer.
     
  7. Mr. Designer

    Mr. Designer Member

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2007
    Messages:
    313
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    For self defense:
    Gold Dot Personal Protection - 45 Colt
    250 grain - GDHP - Muzzle Velocity 900fps

    Use the .410 for snakes.
     
  8. scalper

    scalper Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2008
    Messages:
    147
    Location:
    Greenwood, Missouri
    Sounds like overall more agreement in the 45LC.

    Thanks for all the great suggestions. It sounds like the majority of you prefer 45LC (200-250 gr JHP), so I am glad I asked. I was leaning towards the slug at first, but after some comments about rifling issues, I can see now how 45 LC might be at least the best starting point.

    Yes, he does have the Judge. So as RC135 suggested, maybe he could mix it up a bit. Maybe we'll start him with 3 or 4 45LC cartridges and then put a few shells with some buckshot in the tail end of the cylinder as bit of a booster for the BG. :D

    BTW - Who makes the 3 pellet 000 or 00 buckshot for .410? Is this kind of a novelty? I don't think I have seen it sold anywhere.
     
  9. zxcvbob

    zxcvbob Member

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2007
    Messages:
    5,061
    Location:
    S.E. Minnesota
  10. goon

    goon Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2003
    Messages:
    7,246
    .45 LC is the best choice.
    IIRC, a .410 slug only weighs about 90 grains. That's not much of a projectile for a cartridge that size.
    Buckshot might be a worthwhile choice but I'd still think the old .45 would outclass it.
    But I would imagine that if a 000 buck from a 12 gauge shell can penetrate enough to stop, there isn't any reason it wouldn't also reach the vitals from a .410.
     
  11. foghornl

    foghornl Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2002
    Messages:
    7,403
    255-Gr. "Cowboy Action" load in .45Colt.

    Easy to shoot, and will put a hurtin' on whatever is hit. Or the "Gold Dot" loading a few others mentioned.
     
  12. ArmedBear

    ArmedBear Member

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2005
    Messages:
    23,171
    There are .410 defense rounds with 5 stacked buckshot pellets. Those would work okay.

    Otherwise, the .410 is the .22LR of shotguns. Very useful for some things, but that list of things is not a really long one.

    .45LC, OTOH, is a very versatile round, and in modern guns can be loaded really hot. It can also be loaded for low recoil, though.
     
  13. Harley Quinn

    Harley Quinn Member

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2006
    Messages:
    2,490
    Location:
    No. CA.
    410 2.5" high velocity 1245 750
    3" is even faster and hits harder:rolleyes:

    This is where a 410 shotgun is at :what: So what is wimpy about that:uhoh:
     
  14. ArmedBear

    ArmedBear Member

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2005
    Messages:
    23,171
    A lot wimpier than the .45LC you could put in the gun.

    I'm not sure about shooting slugs from the thing. Is that something that the factory recommends?

    AFAIK the reason for the .410 compatibility is for short-range, large-spread, in-the-face shots to discourage carjackers. Essentially, snake-load functionality.
     
  15. Steve C

    Steve C Member

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2006
    Messages:
    4,651
    This is a good read on the Taurus Judge and the ammo available from the The Box of Truth.
     
  16. ArmedBear

    ArmedBear Member

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2005
    Messages:
    23,171
    Good read, Steve. Thanks.

    If I want a snake gun, I can use a regular revolver with special snakeshot cartridges. These days, they're not too much more expensive than .410 shells, and I have no need for more than a box anyway.

    Clay pigeons with a revolver, though... That sounds fun!
     
  17. RyanM

    RyanM Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2005
    Messages:
    4,412
    Location:
    PA
    I assume this is a Taurus Judge? According to my cobbled-together internal ballistics calculator (don't have the money for QuickLOAD!), for a Judge with a 6.5" barrel:

    1/2 ounce birdshot - 219 gr @ 860 fps
    3 pellets 000 buck - 204 gr @ 900 fps
    1/4 ounce slug - 109 gr @ 1300 fps
    .45 LC - probably 250 gr @ 900 fps or 225 gr @ 1000 fps.

    I have pretty good confidence in those numbers, though. My thing estimates 1,100 fps for a 12 gauge slug from a 6.5" barrel (Serbu Super Shorty). A magazine tested a single shot shotgun chopped down to 6-7/8" and got 1,117 fps. So my numbers should be quite close.

    .45 LC should perform about like it does in a normal gun, though probably with poorer accuracy, and possible keyholing at long range. Basically the sorta problems you can run into shooting slugs through a smoothbore shotgun with a rifled choke. I'd stick with jacketed ammo only.
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2008
  18. Harley Quinn

    Harley Quinn Member

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2006
    Messages:
    2,490
    Location:
    No. CA.
    Good link and really good information about the little pistol.
    Thanks:)

    I have an 1917 Colt that has a 3" barrel half moon clips are used for 45 acp and I also have it bored out to take a 308 cartridge cut at the shoulder and a 44 gas check with #8 in it for snake. Nice little shooter I have had it for 25 years now.

    ;)
     
  19. lbmii

    lbmii Member

    Joined:
    May 17, 2004
    Messages:
    1,017
    Location:
    Overland Park, Kansas
    410/45 Derringer test results

    Derringers chambered for both 410 shotgun shells and 45 Colt have been getting pretty popular. I have been curious about these for a while so I went ahead and bought one of those Cobray side-by-side 410/45 colt derringers. I got the chronograph out and obtained some velocity readings. The pistol itself is what one might call a Saturday Night Special. It is robustly built as well as being very crude and awkward to use. But it is inexpensive compared to the more common 410/45 Colt over and under derringers. A knob for tilting the barrel flung off on the second shot.

    The barrels are just under 3 and ¾ inches long with a small amount of rifling at the end of the barrels.

    The velocity readings are quite low:

    Winchester Cowboy 45 Colt 250 grain averaged 537 fps. Some of the bullet holes at four paces showed obvious tumbling. Recoil was light/moderate and next time around I will get the full-powered 45 Colt. I think a hollow base soft lead bullet would do best in sealing in the barrel and engaging the rifling.

    Remington Extra Long Range 3” 410 #4 shot averaged 670 fps. The shot pattern was very wide with only four pellets hitting a six-inch target at four paces. The recoil is pretty fierce.

    Winchester Sporting Clays 2 ½” #8 shot averaged 706fps and had a tighter pattern. Recoil was fairly strong but not at all bad.

    I made my own triple ought buck round by cutting the top off a 3 inch Remington shot shell and replaced the shot with 3 triple ought lead balls which squeezed firmly into the shot cup. All three pellets hit within a six-inch target at four paces. The velocity was 682 fps. Recoil was moderate.

    Based on my velocity readings I think that these 410/45 derringers should be viewed as a novelty or trail/snake gun and not used for defense. This is not to say that these pistols are not capable of being quite deadly but I think that there are better alternatives out there to use.

    [​IMG]
     
  20. lbmii

    lbmii Member

    Joined:
    May 17, 2004
    Messages:
    1,017
    Location:
    Overland Park, Kansas
    Ryan, I am calculating 204 grains for the 3 pellets of 000 buck (68 grains each).

    Do you have any links to those calculations? Do you have equations for terminal ballistics?
     
  21. ExSoldier

    ExSoldier Member

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2007
    Messages:
    246
    Location:
    Miami, FL
  22. lvcat2004

    lvcat2004 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2008
    Messages:
    502
    Location:
    Las Vegas, NV
    yeah, that taurus judge seems pretty mean. how about a staggering 410 and 45 colt??
     
  23. suemarkp

    suemarkp Member

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2006
    Messages:
    456
    Location:
    Kent, WA
    I think the only way to make the 410 shotshells work well for self defense is to handload them. The fundamental problem is low velocity. To make them go faster, you need to reduce the payload a bit and increase the powder. I'd like more than 3 projectiles, so the 000 is out for me, but could be OK if you pushed the powder somewhat to get the velocity up.

    I think a BB load is about optimal. 21 of them is about 160 grains (and you can fit 21 to 24 in a shell). Number 2 shot fits more nicely, but is a little light even if it hits at 1100 ft/sec. The Golden Bear #4 Buck loads are actually loaded with 5 pellets of #0 Buck (those Russians must use a different size numbering). But they won't chamber in the Judge -- a bit long and too fat. Any pellet larger than BB takes a lot of space in the shell and you won't get too many in it (5 to 7 max), so the payload is too light.

    I'm still playing with various combinations of things to see what will work well (multiple light hardcast 357 wadcutters, different techniques to keep the shot contained, shot payload -vs- power charge, 410 cases -vs- 444 Marlin cases, etc).
     
  24. redneck2

    redneck2 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2002
    Messages:
    10,217
    Location:
    Northern Indiana
    A .410 slug has less power than a .38 Special. Think about that next time you get all excited about taking one deer hunting.
     
  25. cluttonfred

    cluttonfred Member

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2008
    Messages:
    1,127
    Location:
    Nairobi, Kenya
    Visit http://www.brassfetcher.com for some interesting test results that support what other folks have been saying--.45LC is a perfectly good defensive round, .410 buckshot is not as good but will do in a pinch, but any other .410 load, including slugs, is just not worth using for self defense.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page