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Self-Defense bullets/powder

Discussion in 'Handloading and Reloading' started by kestak, Sep 21, 2009.

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  1. GRIZ22

    GRIZ22 Member

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    No stupid laws like in California where you really need to use commercial ammo for self-defense.

    Is this going to be the new internet myth?
     
  2. jfh

    jfh Member

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    Ramshot's Silhouette is definitely a lower-flash powder.

    I've shot it indoors, next to AA#5, but only in .38 Special and .357 Magnum so far. I have not tested it extensively for its flash characteristics. Unfortunately, our club's range has a day-light-to-dusk shooting time, and an irritable neighbor who lives downrange.

    Jim H.
     
  3. armsmaster270

    armsmaster270 Member

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    30 years in Law Enforcement in CA and I know of no such law. However some Instructors say to use factory so the DA can't claim you were using "Special Man Killers " on the poor guy that was just trying to injure you with that 10ga shotgun.:what: DUH.

    On a personal note I prefer to use proven loads tested and carried by on duty officers.
     
  4. rfwobbly

    rfwobbly Member

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    That was already answered.
     
  5. Kentucky Jelly

    Kentucky Jelly Member

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    I just started working on a 9mm SD load. I am using xtp's because I have a ton of them:) over power pistol. I am not reaching close to max loads, and would not consider these hot at all. Below are pics of 3 different powder levels with .1 grn difference. Left to right right being the hottest. Out of a G17.
    DSC_0011.jpg
    DSC_0012.jpg

    I was shooting gallon jugs full of water and digging these out of the soft mud. Not very scientific, but the gallon jugs were greatly traumatized. Also tried them in a m&p compact and they didn't seem near the velocity of the longer barreled Glock. Like I said I wasn't close to max so I am going to try hotter for the m&p or a different powder. All of them felt real nice in the glock. I was alone on a sunny day so I can not comment on flash.
     
  6. ArchAngelCD

    ArchAngelCD Member

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    Along with the already mentioned HP-38 (W231) HS-6 is also a low flash powder. It's a slower burn rate powder than HP-38 and with that it can be used for +P rounds for the 9mm and 45 Auto. (and in the .38 Special +P like I use it)
     
  7. LibertySympathizer

    LibertySympathizer Member

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    Thanks, and sorry I missed the already mentioned HP-38.
     
  8. rfwobbly

    rfwobbly Member

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    It's OK. We got your back.
     
  9. ArchAngelCD

    ArchAngelCD Member

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    My saying it was already mentioned wasn't to tell you it was but to give credit to the post that did mention it already.
     
  10. delta5

    delta5 Member

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    How about Speer gold dot bullets with Hodgdon Titegroup powder?
     
  11. 45crittergitter

    45crittergitter Member

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    There are numerous good reasons to use only factory loads for SD. None of them have anything to do with a statute. As far as handloads or any other load of undocumented origin, don't. Just don't.
     
  12. ljnowell

    ljnowell Member

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    Why? You perpetuate a myth with nothing to back it up. There is no unknown origin when someone builds handload themselves.
     
  13. 45crittergitter

    45crittergitter Member

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    No myth and plenty of backup. I did not say "unknown origin." I said handloads OR undocumented origin (meaning a factory box, not your load notes). Perhaps not the best wordsmithing there. It mostly has to do with evidence issues in the legal system, but nothing to do with statutes. It's all in your assigned reading. Just a hint: You don't want to be the defendant who literally manufactured the evidence. Even factory ammo is best when traced to the specific box or lot number. The $5 you save can easily cost you $50k or more in some situations.
     
  14. Kraylon

    Kraylon Member

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    I was told by a ccw instructor that outside of your house you should never have your reloaded ammo in your gun when you are carrying because if you have to use that firearm at the time you have it loaded with reloads, it can or will give the lawyer that is against you fuel for there fire, since you loaded that ammo, they can claim you made that ammo with the indent to kill someone, and the best ammo to use is as close to what ever the cops in your town use "if it is good enough to protect a officer of the law then it is good enough to protect me." as for home defence he has told me it is best to do the same but you can reload ammo for " home defence" but understand that if that bullet exits your house it has your name all over it and you are going to pay for what ever it hits. In the city I work in, the police use Winchester hollow points and the closest ammo non law enforcement can get is the Winchester sxt.

    Every state or lawyer maybe different but it gives one less reason for the to paint you to be the bad guy, and I could see a lawyer claim one reloaded "man killer" bullets, lawyers are smart but sometime far away from reality.
     
  15. ljnowell

    ljnowell Member

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    The only documented case Ihave ever seen anyone post came from ayoob, and it was shakey. They were accusing the guy of shooting his wife because of the loads in the gun.
     
  16. LibertySympathizer

    LibertySympathizer Member

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    Ordinarily I would agree that for QC and such, use factory stuff.

    But with the ammo shortage, I'd rather use my reloads and take my chances with the aftermath, than rely on my ability to take out Goliath with a rock.

    For the moment, things have changed, and it's no longer the same argument.
     
  17. Balog

    Balog Member

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    Prove it. I see this repeated ad infinitum ad naeseum on the errornet, but I have yet to see any evidence for it other than "Ayoob sez." No offense to him, but until there is a verifiable case where it has happened I'll file it under internet myth.
     
  18. J&S Custom Bullets

    J&S Custom Bullets Member

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    You can buy Gold Dot bullets.
     
  19. 45crittergitter

    45crittergitter Member

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    State of New Jersey v. Daniel Bias

    State of New Hampshire v. Sgt. James Kennedy
     
  20. EddieNFL

    EddieNFL member

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  21. SomeSmuck

    SomeSmuck Member

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    Is HS-6 a clean burning powder as well? I intend to use it for 38 special (reg and +P) and 40 SW loads and was curious. Was also looking at AutoComp and Viht N340. Leaning towards HS-6 or N340 at the moment. I'm not familiar enough with the Ramshot powders to know if any of them are clean and low flash.

    Thanks!
     
  22. lgbloader

    lgbloader Member

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    I use this for 357 Mag as well. 21.0 gr of H110 though.

    LGB
     
  23. BattleChimp Potemkin

    BattleChimp Potemkin Member

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    Another bullet that appears occasionally not on backorder are Sierra Powerjackets. In my highly informal testing :D they expand VERY well in denimed environments in 9 and .45. Unfortunately, they also fragment violently if driven quickly. For a low penetration load, I use upper end dose of Titegroup under a 115gr Sierra JHP in 9mm, a LARGE dose of Viht 3N37 to replicate the lower flash Corbon loading using the same bullet. For .45, mild doses of Unique can be lower flash (close to middle, 230gr, lighter bullets flash horribly as they need more powder). My HP38 load using the old Hodgdon +P data for .45 is phenominal. Used to use a 185gr Gold Dot (didn't feed in my 1911 well, but Glock 30 perfectly), switched to 230gr Gold Dots or Sierra Powerjackets.

    I am not a huge fan of XTPs in slower combinations. My testing has shown they need quite a bit of velo to open up and are confounded easily (regardless of velo) by denim. While not an end all in my book, it is still something I avoid.

    Magtech component "Gold" JHPs are pretty nice and cheap too when you find them online. One can easily replicate factory Magtech defensive ammo. They also have an all copper component bullet like the Barnes, but they are MUCH cheaper and have performed well in my tests (but are usually light for caliber, I.E. 77gr 9mm JHP as opposed to Barne's 115gr). They still penetrate deep and open despite 4 layers of denim and 2 layers of bathtowel (on top another) into saturated sand (the ultimate test IMHO, not for terminal performance, but for seeing if it will clog).

    Also, most cases where I have seen handloaded ammo used against the shooter were questionable cases regardless. The 10mm case, the guy went psycho and attached without provocation, he wasn't convicted based on his ammo... Just throwing that out there, sorry to the OP, this isn't helping... :D
     
  24. 45crittergitter

    45crittergitter Member

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    In New Jersey v. Danial Bias, the weapon was loaded with light reloads. The police used +P factory loads in their GSR tests. The police results incriminated the defendant. The defense experts tested reloads identical to what the defendant claimed to have used. The defense results would have exonerated the defendant, but the evidence was not admitted, because it would have required the court to take the defendant's word for the handload recipe. In other words, the defendant literally manufactured the evidence and the reloading records. This resulted in an indictment and a hung jury in the first trial costing the defendant $100,000. The second trial also resulted in a hung jury. The third trial resulted in a Reckless Manslaughter conviction that was overturned on appeal. A fourth trial also ended in a Reckless Manslaughter conviction and a prison sentence. These trials lasted over ten years and of course bankrupted the defendant. We cannot know, but it is possible, even likely, that had factory ammo been used and the resulting GSR tests supported the defense, there may well have been either no indictment or an acquittal at the first trial. Regardless, I see no legitimate reason to ask for that kind of trouble by trying to save $20 on your self-defense ammo.
     
  25. ljnowell

    ljnowell Member

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    More bullcrap. Sorry to have to tell you this, but this person was not convicted because he used reloads. No one that ever was part of a GOOD shoot was convicted for reloads. Prove me wrong.
     
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