Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by Hog huntin Harry, Aug 17, 2020.
Got a case of these. 55 grain Federal
Prvi m193. I left my 55gr winchester soft points at another location.
Wanna bet they're gold dots?
I’ve used Remington CoreLokt more than any ammunition by a big margin. I’ve never had issues with Winchester centerfire ammunition. I believe your experiences are anomalies that just happen sometime. I know a guy who’s a serious hunter and has been to Africa several times. He won’t buy Burris scopes because he’s had three bought new and all failed. I can’t blame him, I’d do the same. And if I’d had the same experience as you two I wouldn’t use Winchester ammunition or CoreLokt.
In my experience I've found Federal ammunition to be the most reliable.
It's odd for modern ammunition to have actual duds. Were they all in the same rifle?
I've shot multiple cases of Yugo M67 surplus dating back to the early 70's with only about ~3 duds in the 4 or 5 cases I've shot.
The .308 was in my Savage Axis XP1, it shot Winchester, Federal, and PPU with no problems.
The 30WCF was in my Marlin 336w, it shoots Winchester with no problem.
The most accurate factory ammunition I’ve shot in my 336W is 150 grain CoreLokt. It is legitimately 1-1.25 MOA depending on how I’m shooting that day. The rifle was also was purchased new during the height of the bad Remlin production. I’ve never been in to lever action rifles and so I not realize at the time how excellent the accuracy was.
I tried Federal Blue Box in my .243 and it was around three MOA.
Doing some target shooting today. This is 1" mild steel pipe shot with the Speer 55 sp. Also birch logs approximate 2" thickness. Neither were fully penetrated. Range 50 yards. The damage to the top log was from an oblique impact. I split one open and found the bullet fragmented. Unfortunately a thunderstorm forced me inside before I could get a decent picture of that. On the steel pipe, one side was penetrated, the back deeply dented. I guess these may not be as much of an over penetration risk as I first thought. Accuracy was outstanding. Less than 2 MOA from a cheap carbine with a 4x scope and awful trigger from an improvised rest.
Quite an eclectic array of defensive loads people using in their AR's. Its surprises me actually. I thought M193 spec was more or less the standard go to. I keep mags loaded with Federal or LC M193, Federal .223 or a couple with Fiocchi 77gr SMK. Never really considered any others.....
After blasting a lot of water jugs, including some through improvised barriers ranging from pine boards up to full drywall/stud simulated walls, I decided on the Winchester 64gr Power Point (Super-X or Ranger) SP that a couple other folks have mentioned.
I had taken pictures and notes (which I unfortunately don't have handy at the moment to post here) about the various bullets' penetration and expansion/fragmentation when shot out of the same gun (1:7 twist 16" barrel) at 25 yards and the results as I recall them were that the 64gr SP penetrated further than any of the lighter varmint rounds, while remaining mostly intact and exhibiting some expansion. Penetration was slightly less than with M193 and M855, but again, the Winchester remained mostly intact, and expanded rather than fragment for the most part. Penetration and expansion were both less than with a bonded SP of similar weight (Fusion, Gold Dot, etc.) but both were greater than that of lighter SP and HP loads, as well as with 68gr and heavier BTHP/OTM ala Sierra and Hornady. Federal 64gr SP from their hunting and LE lines performed similarly to the Winchester, but in my limited testing, tended to retain a bit less bullet weight.
As an aside, my experience with the BTHP/OTM rounds in water jugs was that Sierra Match King (SMK) bullets fragmented heavily, while Hornady of comparable bullet weight could usually be retrieved with a respectable portion of the bullet still intact, separated from the jacket.
I load mine with 55gr JSPs that I assemble myself. I’ve used midways dogtown bullets, Hornady and Sierra, and they all seem to do pretty well in my unscientific, shooting at random stuff testing. The accuracy edge goes to Sierra though.
the only factory 223 I even remember using was some 1980s vintage Federal FMJs.
5.56mm NATO M193 55 gr. ball:
- An aperture sighted 580 Series Mini-14 (18.5" Bbl.).
- Zero'ed at 100 yards, which is just shy of the 2700 fps Reliable Fragmentation Threshold range (~ 115 yds) given a 3150 fps muzzle velocity,
- Will be (+/-) 1/4" from 25 yds out to that 115 yards, (starting 7/8" low at the muzzle).
...and will really tear stuff up out to that range:
No kidding.... 60gr Vmax
This is pretty interesting
I believe I'm starting to over think self defense load/cartridge selection. I imagine there'd be no difference between 10-15 rounds of M855 or Hornady V-max into the chest of an attacker at 5 yards. I imagine 10+ rounds of any intermediate rifle cartridge would equally turn lungs and such into soup.
I really think almost any 223 round will likely work, we're mostly trying to get the best peace of mind performance wise.
A 50 or 55 gr Vmax to the chest should do the job, BUT if we want to be absolutely nitpick it doesn't meet the FBI penetration standards. Will it do the job 99 times out of 100? You bet. But being as dedicated to firearms/ammo/etc as we are around here, he have a tendency to fixate on the 1 out of 100 instance and how to mitigate it. The biggest variable I always see is hitting an arm before hitting the torso and how that affects penetration, but I also feel like most people won't be firing a single shot in such instances which kind of mitigates that concern.
I'll put it this way, whether my mag is loaded with 55gr FMJ, 55gr Vmax, or 62gr OTM (the 3 options I have) I'm not worried about lethality.
Do yourself a favor:
Go spend a coupla bucks on a large, fresh, whole fryer chicken, giblets in.
Then, from ~ 25 yards, put One(1.0) round of 5.56x45mm M193 55 gr. Ball, dead center, side on, into it.
...and then check out the damage.
I think I have about a mag each of 64 gr Win Power Points, 62 gr Federal Fusion MSR, and 62 gr Barnes TSX. Any of them will work for my purposes, though I tend to prefer the Barnes, since I have used them on game, and know how they perform on tissue.
M855 is about the last thing I want to use unless I'm shooting through a windshield or similiar barrier. Odds are really really long I'll ever have to fire on somebody, even longer still that I'll have to penetrate a barrier to "defend" myself. I keep some stocked because I got some in a trade once but I would take M193 over M855 any day and twice on Sunday. Just saying.
Of course you are right though, at 5-10 yards I'm pretty sure bad guy goes down, M855 is just known to ice pick if I'm not mistaken. A gulf war vet I know who used it on the two way range warned me about it. He hated it, said it was hard enough to shoot somebody but to have to shoot somebody 5-7 times ea was crappy.....
If I'm not mistaken, isn't the US military still using M855 ?
As far as I know, they use M193, in addition I think green tipped M855 is getting phased out and being replaced with the newer A1 version with the tungsten (possibly) tip? Maybe tin/bismuth, I'm not really sure maybe somebody coming back from a recent deployment can tell us what is being used. I've wondered in which cases were M193/M855 issued. Is it M193 for standard M4 and M855 for the Saw gunner? If someone knows speak up. Generally speaking I pretty sure M193 is the standard issue round.
I wonder how come M193 55gr ball isnt on the chart.... not to keep repeating myself but it's a nasty round.... some folks here have me considering stocking up on some V-Max ammo though. Looks quite effective. I have some 62gr Fusion soft points. I wonder how they would do for SD. They were recommended to me for white tail....
As far as I know, M193 has not been in use by the US armed forces for many years, and M855 has been either completely phased out or nearly so. The three 5.56 rounds I'm aware of in current use are 62gr M855A1, 62gr Mk318 and 77gr Mk262, that last one using the Sierra Matchking (SMK) OTM bullet. It may have since been replaced by the newer Tipped Matchking (TMK) bullet of the same weight.
M193 and M855 may still be used for training purposes and/or Reserve/Guard issue, and I suspect that other nations' militaries who use 5.56 NATO may still issue them.
I did not know that. That's surprising because the M855A1 and Mk262 are very expensive....
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