Self defense loads for .223

[bfoosh006]

That is all about 62 gr. M855 ammo, assuming a 1:7 Military twist rate.

What does that have to do with 55 gr. M193 Ball?

<- Steel core M855 on the left - M193 FMJ on the right ->
​

Again...

What does DocRoberts say, exactly, w/r/t 55 gr. FMJ M193 Ball ammo at > 2700 fps impact velocity?

That is your fallacy.

​

And it's also my inexpensive training ammo.

...so Every Shot - will be the same.

No "precious" and expensive Tac ammo - that may not shoot the same.


If - your carbine does have a short Bbl... buy appropriate ammo for it.

From my 18.5"/ 1:9" twist Ruger 580 Series Mini-14... where > 2700 fps is ~ 115 yards down range...?

55 gr. M193 Ball... works.

​

GR

And your fallacy is assuming impact velocities above 2700fps.

What about shorter barrels... what about extended distances resulting in lower velocities.

If the 5.56 55gr FMJ bullet is so consistently good... why is it not still in use by the US military ?

Use 5.56 55gr FMJ if you want... it has been proven there is better , more consistent performing 5.56 ammo available.

My point is that the 55gr FMJ relies on velocity and angle of impact to much.

If you don't agree with me, that is your choice.

I never said the M193 or M855 doesn't perform... I have said it doesn't consistently perform. There is a difference.
You keep denying the proven facts. And avoiding my questions.... so there is your "fallacy".

Again... if the M193 55gr FMJ is so perfect a performer ( according to you ) ... why is it not still issued and in use by the US Military ?

Are you saying there aren't better bullets for SD in .223 / 5.56 ?


But this thread isn't just about the 55gr FMJ bullet... it is about ALL SD loads.
So you can use it if you want.
But there are other bullets that are far more consistent in performance... denying that is not helpful to others asking for input.

To be honest, if the perfect bullet design was out there, we all would be using it.... and the M193 load is not in worldwide use as the perfect 5.56 load.


"Angle-of-Attack (AOA) variations between different projectiles, even within the same lot of ammo, as well as Fleet Yaw variations between different rifles, were recently elucidated by the JSWB-IPT. These yaw issues were most noticeable at close ranges and were more prevalent with certain calibers and bullet styles–the most susceptible being 5.56 mm FMJ ammunition like M855 and M193."

"This failure of 5.56 mm bullets to upset can be caused by reduced impact velocities when hitting targets at longer ranges, as well as by the decreased muzzle velocity when using short barrel carbines. Failure to upset can also occur when bullets pass through minimal tissue, such as a limb or the torso of a thin, small statured individual, as the bullet may exit the body before it has a chance to upset. Finally, bullet design and construction plays a major role in reliable bullet upset. Without consistent bullet upset, wounding effects are decreased, rapid incapacitation is unlikely, and enemy combatants may continue to pose a threat to friendly forces and innocent civilians."

 

[Garandimal]

Again...

What does DocRoberts say, specifically, w/r/t 55 gr. FMJ M193 Ball ammo at > 2700 fps impact velocity?

That is your fallacy.

If the 5.56 55gr FMJ bullet is so consistently good... why is it not still in use by the US military ?...

It wouldn't poke a hole in a steel helmet at 600 yards.

Is that a Self Defense ammo requirement for you?

And your fallacy is assuming impact velocities above 2700fps...

No, I'm Guaranteeing impact velocities > 2700 fps... because that is the Ballistic Reality stated.

Read it.

Also stated that, if your Carbine won't make > 2700 fps... buy appropriate ammo for it.

Read that, too.


The OP is w/r/t Self Defense ammo.

Do you consider 100 yards to be inside that envelope?

How about 100 feet... or 100 inches?


The Ballistic Fact is - that at > 2700 fps impact velocity, good ole inexpensive training 55 gr. FMJ M193 Ball ammo... works.

<- Steel core M855 on the left - M193 FMJ on the right ->


​

You know what really makes a difference?

Good hits.

How do you get good hits?

You train... a lot.

I get my training/SD ammo by the 1,000 round case.

​

Wrap yourself up in Academics and shoot what you want.




GR

 

[Garandimal]

I've shot people with both military FMJ as well as hollow point LE loads. The guy I shot with the LE hollow point, I had to shoot twice. Both chest shots, both fatal shots. He then layed there and talked with me for about a minute. Dont expect a good modern round to need only one shot

Somehow... that didn't make it into the sales literature.



Troops in the field nicknamed the 55 gr. FMJ M193 Ball ammo... the "meat axe".




GR

 

[Hog huntin Harry]

Again...
The OP is w/r/t Self Defense ammo.

Do you consider 100 yards to be inside that envelope?

I consider any situation where I must defend myself from attacker/s attempting to do serious bodily harm to me self defense, no matter the distance.

 

[Garandimal]

I consider any situation where I must defend myself from attacker/s attempting to do serious bodily harm to me self defense, no matter the distance.

If you consider > 100 yards SD shooting...?

Have a good lawyer.


And, on the astronomical chance that conditions present viable threats at >100 yards...?

The Mini-14 is not the rifle that will be in my hands (even though it is still effective out to ~ 150).

This one will.

​

GR

 

[cdb1]

Even though the U.S. in my understanding never signed off on the Hague Convention dictum concerning expanding bullets, they have pretty much abided by it. That’s my understanding anyway. By dint of abiding by Convention rules then its highly unlikely any U.S. military small arms bullet is going to be optimal for self defense.

I of course could be wrong.

 

[Garandimal]

Even though the U.S. in my understanding never signed off on the Hague Convention dictum concerning expanding bullets, they have pretty much abided by it. That’s my understanding anyway. By dint of abiding by Convention rules then its highly unlikely any U.S. military small arms bullet is going to be optimal for self defense.

I of course could be wrong.

Depends on the threat.

For the Fulda Gap and the Korangal Valley, the military wanted a round that could penetrate a steel helmet at 600 meters.

... 62 gr. SS109/M855 w/ Steel Perpetrator.


In the Central Highlands, the military wanted an explosive round against pajamas out to 200 meters.

... 55 gr. FMJ M193 Ball.

​

GR

 

[bfoosh006]

Quote.... "Garandimal, Again...

What does DocRoberts say, specifically, w/r/t 55 gr. FMJ M193 Ball ammo at > 2700 fps impact velocity?

That is your fallacy."

Again for you as well... you keep saying 2700fps... so, all your SD shots will be above 2700fps ?

And if not... you now say longer SD distances will be with another caliber / rifle ?!

So the 55gr FMJ under 2700fps / past "150yds" would not be your first choice ?

And I just answered your question.... show me your proof.
Make it consistent... not videos of shooting watermelons. ( ?! )

And I will post what Dr Roberts has to say again for you. Sounds pretty clear to me.

"Angle-of-Attack (AOA) variations between different projectiles, even within the same lot of ammo, as well as Fleet Yaw variations between different rifles, were recently elucidated by the JSWB-IPT. These yaw issues were most noticeable at close ranges and were more prevalent with certain calibers and bullet styles–the most susceptible being 5.56 mm FMJ ammunition like M855 and M193."

"This failure of 5.56 mm bullets to upset can be caused by reduced impact velocities when hitting targets at longer ranges, as well as by the decreased muzzle velocity when using short barrel carbines. Failure to upset can also occur when bullets pass through minimal tissue, such as a limb or the torso of a thin, small statured individual, as the bullet may exit the body before it has a chance to upset. Finally, bullet design and construction plays a major role in reliable bullet upset. Without consistent bullet upset, wounding effects are decreased, rapid incapacitation is unlikely, and enemy combatants may continue to pose a threat to friendly forces and innocent civilians."


Your fallacy as well.

Since there are little, if any steel helmets in use in the Middle East... why hasn't the M193 returned ?
According to you, the 55gr FMJ would be perfect.

BTW, what barrel length would be perfect for you and your 55gr FMJ ?... as well as your other rifles ?

But guess what.. it isn't.
And many new bullet designs have come from that combat zone... and again... Mk262, Mk318... both far more consistent performers.



Answer my previous questions... "Are you saying there aren't better bullets for SD in .223 / 5.56 ?"

​

You know what really makes a difference?

Good hits.

How do you get good hits?

You train... a lot.

I get my training/SD ammo by the 1,000 round case.

I agree with this... as for your quantities of ammo expended... that doesn't make you as qualified as Dr Roberts.

Myself and Many of us actually buy, train, and shoot ammo by the case, Lol

​

Wrap yourself up in Academics and shoot what you want.

And Again....Are you saying there aren't better bullets for SD in .223 / 5.56, than the 55gr FMJ ?

I agree to disagree... "If" I have a fallacy....you are just as guilty of having a fallacy , Lol... it is 2700fps.

The rounds that are yaw dependent are also doing 2700fps at impact.... the fact is , the 55gr FMJ can be yaw dependent.. those same yaw dependent 55gr FMJ's , resulting in little if any fragmentation.

Are you saying Dr. Roberts is wrong ?

And again... Are you saying there aren't better bullets for SD in .223 / 5.56, than the 55gr FMJ ?

AGAIN not a consistent performer.
Dr Roberts has shown this and said this many many times.

If you were going hunting, for "deer", with a .223/5.56... would the average guy limit his bullet to a 55gr FMJ ?
He is only carrying one rifle.
Go ahead and pick a barrel length.
And limit the distance to match the 2700fps threshold ?( Barrel length dependent as well )

That is your fallacy.

I doubt it.... that same hunter will probably use ammo that performs over a larger velocity range.
A more consistent performing bullet... one that isn't yaw dependent.

And in that case... there are MANY better bullets / factory loads better then the 55gr FMJ.

I am sure your intentions are well intended. And the 55gr FMJ / M193 is a still a reasonable round.
And even with its faults, it has a proven track record.

I have better things to do with my time than disagree with you.
Ultimately, most people will decide for themselves what ammo to use , when their life / or loved ones are on the line....

Respectfully, I am going to bow out of this fallacy of ours.
You do as you see fit.. I will do as I see fit.

I agree to disagree.... After all... we are on the same side.
And truly have others best interests at heart.
Albeit, different perspectives.

 

[M1key]

Yawn. Good grief.

Two carbines 1:9 twist both loaded with 55 Speer Gold Dot or 55 PPU SP. I do understand the Gold Dot has pretty good barrier penetration if needed and is very accurate. My longest shot around here would be <100 yards.

Good luck. Hope you survive more than one personal encounter. Keep prayed up.

M

 

[Garandimal]

Quote.... "Garandimal, Again...

What does DocRoberts say, specifically, w/r/t 55 gr. FMJ M193 Ball ammo at > 2700 fps impact velocity?

That is your fallacy."

Again for you as well... you keep saying 2700fps... so, all your SD shots will be above 2700fps ?

And if not... you now say longer SD distances will be with another caliber / rifle ?!

So the 55gr FMJ under 2700fps / past "150yds" would not be your first choice ?

And I just answered your question.... show me your proof.
Make it consistent... not videos of shooting watermelons. ( ?! )

And I will post what Dr Roberts has to say again for you. Sounds pretty clear to me.

"Angle-of-Attack (AOA) variations between different projectiles, even within the same lot of ammo, as well as Fleet Yaw variations between different rifles, were recently elucidated by the JSWB-IPT. These yaw issues were most noticeable at close ranges and were more prevalent with certain calibers and bullet styles–the most susceptible being 5.56 mm FMJ ammunition like M855 and M193."

"This failure of 5.56 mm bullets to upset can be caused by reduced impact velocities when hitting targets at longer ranges, as well as by the decreased muzzle velocity when using short barrel carbines. Failure to upset can also occur when bullets pass through minimal tissue, such as a limb or the torso of a thin, small statured individual, as the bullet may exit the body before it has a chance to upset. Finally, bullet design and construction plays a major role in reliable bullet upset. Without consistent bullet upset, wounding effects are decreased, rapid incapacitation is unlikely, and enemy combatants may continue to pose a threat to friendly forces and innocent civilians."


Your fallacy as well.

Since there are little, if any steel helmets in use in the Middle East... why hasn't the M193 returned ?
According to you, the 55gr FMJ would be perfect.

BTW, what barrel length would be perfect for you and your 55gr FMJ ?... as well as your other rifles ?

But guess what.. it isn't.
And many new bullet designs have come from that combat zone... and again... Mk262, Mk318... both far more consistent performers.



Answer my previous questions... "Are you saying there aren't better bullets for SD in .223 / 5.56 ?"

​

You know what really makes a difference?

Good hits.

How do you get good hits?

You train... a lot.

I get my training/SD ammo by the 1,000 round case.

I agree with this... as for your quantities of ammo expended... that doesn't make you as qualified as Dr Roberts.

Myself and Many of us actually buy, train, and shoot ammo by the case, Lol

​

Wrap yourself up in Academics and shoot what you want.

And Again....Are you saying there aren't better bullets for SD in .223 / 5.56, than the 55gr FMJ ?

I agree to disagree... "If" I have a fallacy....you are just as guilty of having a fallacy , Lol... it is 2700fps.

The rounds that are yaw dependent are also doing 2700fps at impact.... the fact is , the 55gr FMJ can be yaw dependent.. those same yaw dependent 55gr FMJ's , resulting in little if any fragmentation.

Are you saying Dr. Roberts is wrong ?

And again... Are you saying there aren't better bullets for SD in .223 / 5.56, than the 55gr FMJ ?

AGAIN not a consistent performer.
Dr Roberts has shown this and said this many many times.

If you were going hunting, for "deer", with a .223/5.56... would the average guy limit his bullet to a 55gr FMJ ?
He is only carrying one rifle.
Go ahead and pick a barrel length.
And limit the distance to match the 2700fps threshold ?( Barrel length dependent as well )

That is your fallacy.

I doubt it.... that same hunter will probably use ammo that performs over a larger velocity range.
A more consistent performing bullet... one that isn't yaw dependent.

And in that case... there are MANY better bullets / factory loads better then the 55gr FMJ.

I am sure your intentions are well intended. And the 55gr FMJ / M193 is a still a reasonable round.
And even with its faults, it has a proven track record.

I have better things to do with my time than disagree with you.
Ultimately, most people will decide for themselves what ammo to use , when their life / or loved ones are on the line....

Respectfully, I am going to bow out of this fallacy of ours.
You do as you see fit.. I will do as I see fit.

I agree to disagree.... After all... we are on the same side.
And truly have others best interests at heart.
Albeit, different perspectives.

This is an emotional Academic obfuscation.

... a technicolor WOT.


The Fact, and the Ballistic Reality, is:

Good ole 55 gr. FMJ M193 Ball ammo, with an impact velocity of > 2700 fps (~ 115 yards from a 1:9 twist 18.5" Bbl.)

... is a devastating SD round.

... and is not the same as steel core M855, nor does it need to be.

As an SD round, M193 Ball is superior, with a proven record both in test and in the field.


Is the 55 gr. M193 Ball "meat Axe" perfect?

No.

Name a round that is.

... but at < 100 yards... it's damn good.

​

So, wrap yourself in your Academic fallacy and shoot what you like.

... or not.

​

Good day.




GR

 

[Goosey]

I've heard some say that the M193 is even better than most expanding bullets, because all the fragments traveling in various directions can rip an even larger wound than a bullet which mostly sticks together. Similar for bullets like the 77 TMK. But there is that thing about the potential inconsistency with the angle of impact and therefore the "neck length", although it's faster and more consistent at fragmenting than the M855. Of course at long ranges it no longer fragments, but it's not a concern as most all civilian self or home defense takes place at very short ranges. Those using very short barrels will be picking something else, so again not a concern. One thing to consider is that not every make of 55 gr FMJ is constructed the same, somewhat different jackets, shapes, etc, some may fragment better or worse, and I don't think manufacturers are necessarily doing much considering about this either. But it's the exception and if it's proper M193 it's probably good to go. You could argue about if it's the absolute best choice. But in any case it's a solid choice and certainly not ineffective.

 

[bfoosh006]

5.56 mm 55 gr M193 Terminal Performance Thoughts
8/23/11

For those folks who think the 55 gr M193 FMJ is a great 5.56 mm load for self-defense, the following quote was written by Dr. Martin Fackler, the man who has done more research on the M193 than anyone else on this planet:

“In 1980, I treated a soldier shot accidentally with an M16 M193 bullet from a distance of about ten feet. The bullet entered his left thigh and traveled obliquely upward. It exited after passing through about 11 inches of muscle. The man walked in to my clinic with no limp whatsoever: the entrance and exit holes were about 4 mm across, and punctate. X-ray films showed intact bones, no bullet fragments, and no evidence of significant tissue disruption caused by the bullet’s temporary cavity. The bullet path passed well lateral to the femoral vessels. He was back on duty in a few days. Devastating? Hardly. The wound profile of the M193 bullet (page 29 of the Emergency War Surgery—NATO Handbook, GPO, Washington, D.C., 1988) shows that most often the bullet travels about five inches through flesh before beginning significant yaw. But about 15% of the time, it travels much farther than that before yawing—in which case it causes even milder wounds, if it missed bones, guts, lung, and major blood vessels. In my experience and research, at least as many M16 users in Vietnam concluded that it produced unacceptably minimal, rather than “massive”, wounds. After viewing the wound profile, recall that the Vietnamese were small people, and generally very slim. Many M16 bullets passed through their torsos traveling mostly point forward, and caused minimal damage. Most shots piercing an extremity, even in the heavier-built Americans, unless they hit bone, caused no more damage than a 22 caliber rimfire bullet.”

Fackler, ML: “Literature Review”. Wound Ballistics Review; 5(2):40, Fall 2001

Academic fallacy from another expert... Dr. Martin Fackler.

http://www.sadefensejournal.com/wp/father-of-modern-wound-ballistics/

Please note this quote...
"The SCHV debate focused on the 5.56×45 mm U.S. M16 rifle, acquired by the U.S. military in 1963. SCHV gained international attention in large measure from hyperbole by the Department of Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency’s pro-acquisition position exaggerated characterization of the 5.56×45 mm bullet as having “explosive” terminal effects. (A 1960 demonstration for Air Force Chief of Staff Curtis Le May involved shooting into watermelons, reinforcing the fiction of “explosive” terminal effects). Industry proponents asserted caliber 5.56×45 mm provided “increased lethality,” and increased “kinetic energy transfer” resulting in terminal ballistics superior to that of 7.62×51 mm NATO ammunition. These false, sensationalist claims created a self-inflicted wound for the U.S. delegation in the ensuing UNCCW debates.

http://thinlineweapons.com/IWBA/2000-Vol4No4.pdf

Starting at page 34... more input.

So again.. there are better choices.

"Name a round that is."

I already have.. but I will repeat.

BH 77gr TMK .223



BH 50gr Optimized 5.56

Mk318


All the Speer .223 Gold Dots... match your barrel length to your bullet weight choice.
All sorts of videos online.

Your continued use of the phrase of "Academic fallacy" is ignoring the facts of the experts.

Are you saying they are wrong as well ?

 

[Ironicaintit]

Well that was one lucky fellow

 

[Stophel]

I grew up listening to Vietnam veterans tell me how much the M16 and its cartridge totally sucked. Big time. This was pretty much common knowledge at the time, and now it seems people have forgotten this and become enamored with plain old 55 grain ball ammo, thinking it is like magic....

From what I understand, and if someone is more knowledgeable, correct me if I'm wrong, Stoner designed the gun with a very slow 1 in 14" twist, which meant the bullet leaving the barrel was understabilized. Stoner knew he would be saddled with lousy FMJ bullets, why not make the most of them. The understabilized bullets would pitch and yaw on impact, and tear up Jack. The first runs of the AR15/M16 were made with this rifling twist, and from what I've read, the GI's that got them, loved them. They were like the hammer of Thor. But, soon the Army decided that these understabilized guns weren't accurate enough, especially at longer ranges, so they wanted the twist tightened up. Accuracy improved, but the deadly tumbling action disappeared, leading to the reputation that people my age and older heard all about. An itty bitty icepick poking tiny holes in the bad guys.

Also, from what I understand, the xm193 still has a somewhat greater tendency to tumble on impact, even when well-stabilized, so it may be better than 855.

Personally, I think any soft point .223 load would be absolutely devastating. But if all you have is xm193 ball, I guess that would just have to do.

 

[Swampman]

There was never any military requirement, standard or specification for fragmentation of either M193 or M855. If a particular lot of ammo met velocity, accuracy, pressure, penetration and other required specifications, it was accepted for service. Whether the bullets fragmented, or at what velocity, was totally irrelevant to their acceptance by the military.

Ammunition, like every other manufactured product, has allowable tolerances and variations. Because of this, some lots of M193 were much more prone to fragmentation than others.

 

[Garandimal]

Well that was one lucky fellow

Like winning the Lottery!

“In 1980, I treated a soldier shot accidentally with an M16 M193 bullet from a distance of about ten feet. The bullet entered his left thigh and traveled obliquely upward. It exited after passing through about 11 inches of muscle. The man walked in to my clinic with no limp whatsoever: the entrance and exit holes were about 4 mm across, and punctate. X-ray films showed intact bones, no bullet fragments, and no evidence of significant tissue disruption caused by the bullet’s temporary cavity. The bullet path passed well lateral to the femoral vessels. He was back on duty in a few days. Devastating? Hardly. The wound profile of the M193 bullet (page 29 of the Emergency War Surgery—NATO Handbook, GPO, Washington, D.C., 1988) shows that most often the bullet travels about five inches through flesh before beginning significant yaw. But about 15% of the time, it travels much farther than that before yawing—in which case it causes even milder wounds, if it missed bones, guts, lung, and major blood vessels. In my experience and research, at least as many M16 users in Vietnam concluded that it produced unacceptably minimal, rather than “massive”, wounds. After viewing the wound profile, recall that the Vietnamese were small people, and generally very slim. Many M16 bullets passed through their torsos traveling mostly point forward, and caused minimal damage. Most shots piercing an extremity, even in the heavier-built Americans, unless they hit bone, caused no more damage than a 22 caliber rimfire bullet.”

Fackler, ML: “Literature Review”. Wound Ballistics Review; 5(2):40, Fall 2001

A singular 40 year old incident, that has been repeated ad infinitum and ad nauseam, like it was a common everyday occurrence.

Academic Fallacy.

​

GR

 

[bfoosh006]

"A singular 40 year old incident, that has been repeated ad infinitum and ad nauseam, like it was a common everyday occurrence."


You left out who wrote it... and ignored the other information I posted.


"the following quote was written by Dr. Martin Fackler, the man who has done more research on the M193 than anyone else on this planet:"

Again...
Your continued use of the phrase of "Academic fallacy" is ignoring the facts of the experts.

Are you saying the experts are wrong as well ?

I have tried being the voice of reason. You keep spreading mis-information that has been proven incorrect.

The whole point to this thread is
Self defense loads for .223....
Not just the M193 55gr FMJ.
How about your watermelon videos ?... No comment about how those mean nothing ?

 

[bfoosh006]

I have said this before... there are better, more consistent performing loads than M193.

If someone decides to use M193, please be aware of its short comings. ( and M855 )

This constant "agree to disagree" is not helping the various forum members make educated decisions concerning their ammo choices.

Clearly both myself and Garandimal have polar opposite view points.

Please read some of my linked info , and decide for yourselves , what ammo you are willing to possibly stake you and loved ones lives on.

 

[bfoosh006]

Not to deviate from the thread, but how well does 7.62x51 M80 ball wound ?

There are quite a few onhand medical results done by Dr. Martin Fackler concerning the M80. If you'd like I can send you a link to the reports.

 

[Garandimal]

I have said this before... there are better, more consistent performing loads than M193.

If someone decides to use M193, please be aware of its short comings. ( and M855 )

This constant "agree to disagree" is not helping the various forum members make educated decisions concerning their ammo choices.

Clearly both myself and Garandimal have polar opposite view points.

Please read some of my linked info , and decide for yourselves , what ammo you are willing to possibly stake you and loved ones lives on.

Better yet - watch the 55 gr. FMJ M193 Ball gel/melon tests posted in this thread, performed by others.

Then, go out and shoot a few Hundred rounds of 55 gr. FMJ M193 Ball yourself - at < 100 yards, into all kinds of test media - water jugs/paper pulp/clay/watermelons/pumpkins/whole fryer chickens/hogs/etc./...

... so you can see for yourself what this round will do in its design envelope.

Then, find some Vets that actually used it in the field, in that envelope, say, in the jungle... on real threats - and ask them what their results with 55 gr. FMJ M193 Ball were.


Or, you can buy into Dr. Martin Fackler's singular event ad infinitum and ad nauseam Academic Fallacy.


Shoot what you want.

​

GR

 

[entropy]

Bfoosh006

Garandimal

Would you two get a room already?

The wonder of our country is that you both can shoot whichever round you want in your .223/5.56 SD gun. Win-win for all.

 

[Hog huntin Harry]

It would be much more helpful if y'all were debating over 55 grain Barnes TSX vs 55 grain Hornady V-max, or something of that nature. I personally would not use M193 or M855 for anything other than plinking.

There's no point to me using El cheapo FMJ or steel core that may or may not fragment/yaw.

 

[bfoosh006]

You other guys are right. Thanks for pointing out the folly of disagreeing with certain other people.

 

[bfoosh006]

What loads would y'all recommend for self defense in .223 ?
I was thinking along the lines of a 55 grain GMX or 73 grain critical defense.

How well would a 55 grain GMX preform ?

First off... my apologizes for side tracking your thread.

What barrel length ? Is your rifle chambered in .223 ? or a true 5.56 chamber ? ( The difference being the greater amount of freebore / leade in a 5.56 chamber )

Are you looking for a Blind Barrier round or a soft skinned round ?

Here is a link to the current Hornady LEO line up.
Ballistic gel shots for all the FBI barriers.

I will send you a link to some decent ammo still available.

The link might help your Hornady choices.

https://www.hornadyle.com/rifle-ammunition/#!/

 

[Stophel]

You other guys are right. Thanks for pointing out the folly of disagreeing with certain other people.

The perfect example of Brandolini's Law, or the BS Asymmetry Principle.