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self defense options

Discussion in 'Non-Firearm Weapons' started by isaac.eck, Nov 28, 2012.

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  1. isaac.eck

    isaac.eck Member

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    I am a minor living in MI, and was wondering if anyone could give me any suggestions on lethal self defense options. It has to be legally concealable, easy to conceal, and preferably simple to use and doesn't require too much training. Thanks.
     
  2. readyeddy

    readyeddy Member

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    Minor and lethal don't sound right together.
     
  3. hso

    hso Moderator Staff Member

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    You'll need to explain what your situation is before you can expect any usable responses considering the legal and practical limitations for minors.

    While Michigan law prohibits sale of "pepper spray" to minors there's nothing that I can see in the law prohibiting a parent from giving it to you or you carrying it.
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2012
  4. isaac.eck

    isaac.eck Member

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    I don't live in a particularly dangerous area, but that doesn’t mean that nothing bad will ever happen to me. I just would like to be prepared. I am kind of leaning towards lethal because most lethal self defense tools give me the option of delivering extreme debilitating pain or death in extreme cases where the attacker might be on drugs or some other substance which might cause him to not go down.
     
  5. zhyla

    zhyla Member

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    There's not really that many options in the concealable department. I'm a big fan of carrying knives but I don't really look at a pocket knife as a weapon. If something bad happens it's my swift feet that will save me, not a 3.5" blade.

    Pepper spray isn't a bad idea. Kimber makes a pepper spray pistol that is tiny, though you only get a couple shots.

    But back on the swift feet thing, up until I had a wife and kids running was a fantastic option. If you're not on the hook to defend someone then I would make sure you can haul butt when you need to. It's good exercise too.
     
  6. Piraticalbob

    Piraticalbob Member

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    As a minor you need to focus on learning about avoiding scenarios in which lethal force would be required. That means shunning friends who are into drugs and petty crime such as shoplifting, vandalism and criminal mischief. When faced with a "fight or flight" scenario, the best option is almost always flight. Learn which ethnic/racial groups in your locale are most often involved in violent crimes, and avoid members of those groups, especially after dark.

    Anyone approaching you after dark is a potential threat if you don't know them; don't let them approach you. The common tactic for street robbers is to ask the time or for a cigarette, and draw a gun when you are distracted by the request. Don't let them approach you and it won't escalate into a robbery.

    Save the desire for lethal weapons for when you come of age and can get a CCW license. Until then, keep your nose and your criminal record clean.
     
  7. Owen Sparks

    Owen Sparks member

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    There are no laws against minors having a walking cane.
     
  8. isaac.eck

    isaac.eck Member

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    I do try to stay out of such situations, and have never even had a close call, but if you only had to "try" to stay out of such situations, then there would be no crime. Yes, I agree that staying out of this type of situation is the best option, and I will continue to strive to do so, but sometimes despite all eforts, such a situation is unavoidable. As for my friends, they are all every one of them cadets in the Civil Air Patrol and are one hundred and ten percent trust worthy. Most of them I would litteraly trust my life with.
     
  9. bikerdoc

    bikerdoc Moderator Staff Member

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    Welcome Issac.Eck

    There is a lot to learn here and you seem to be just the kind of young man we like to educate. :)
    Some things to think about,

    ADEE= avoid, disengage, escape, evade.

    Simply put,
    Don't go stupid places, where stupid people, are doing stupid things.
    In other words leave.
    Develop a good situational awareness.

    Maybe train in a martial art.

    Learn about weapons of opportunity.

    Just some thoughts, keep visiting and learning, and again,
    Welcome
     
  10. Noah

    Noah Member

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    Hey Isaac! I'm another minor who likes to keep an eye on things. ;) Of course running is always the best option, and avoiding all the stupidity of teenage life is very important, but sometimes you can get cornered. Or jumped. Or you have a responsibility to keep others safe- say you're out with a younger sibling, or your great grandmother, girlfirend, or just so happen to not want that very bad person to hurt that victimized stranger, and you WILL do something to stop it.

    I work at a grocery store, and spend a lot of time around a lot of people. Who says homeschoolers aren't socialized... Anyway, if it's just me, I'll run if I can. But I won't run if that means someone I care about , or anyone, is going to be seriously hurt.

    Your number 1 is your brain. Again, stay far away from all things not on the straight and narrow. That's a duh. Keep your head always on a swivel, always pay attention. Don''t be texting on your phone while you walk through the parking lot. You can easily avoid a lot of trouble.

    Number 2 is your mindset- you have to be willing and ready to do anything and everything to stop a serious threat. Think about this. Pause. And think about it again. You might get hurt. You might get killed. You will never quite be the same either way. Forget rules. If someone attacks you, don't play fair at all.

    And number 3- tool set. I carry a big can of very high strength OC Spray. I can draw and deploy in a matter of seconds, and this is a very good way to stop a "bad guy". But it can fail. But it has range and is non lethal. Note I just listed non lethal as a pro here. It is never good to kill some one. It can be both right and necessary, but it is INCREDIBLY serious. Never forget that.

    If the Pepper Spray doesn't stop them, or it is a situation where I can't use the spray, IE "Oh my goodness that guy just picked my screaming little sister up and is running" or something, then I have a lethal option- a 3 3/4" assisted opening folding knife. Why? Besides the million uses as a tool/survival implement, I know I cannot physically match a grown adult, and sometimes, you really REALLY have to end what someone is doing. This is absolute life or death last resort here. As a minor in Ohio, Tasers, batons, fixed blade knives, and such are all out. But I can, will, and do carry a folding knife and a multitool, and a flashlight, and OC spray.


    Some other advice- to heck with all the social hierarchy that comes with being a teen. Absolutely never ever have anything to do with fist fights, bullying, gangs, and all mutual or social status based verbal and physical issues. You NEVER need to prove that you are better than "that stupid jock" who "insulted you". You have God, your family, and maybe a girl to tell you that you are loved, important, and appreciated, and you don't need to prove it with violence, bullying, whatever. And if you ever use your toolset (OC Spray, Knife, etc) in a situation like this, you will very rightfully so be in big, big trouble.

    For the record, I am always within a few feet of an AK rifle at home, and this is a whole nother area of extreme responsibility, and I will be getting to work on my CHL the day I turn 21. Not going out for a drink- alcohol and responsible, mature behavior don't seem to mix.


    Thanks for reading, Isaac, God Bless!
     
  11. Baba Louie

    Baba Louie Member

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    Great Advice

    isaac,
    All good advice so far.
    :D

    Tools are gadgets, you are the weapon. If you look around you right now, wherever you're at, there are probably 10 items within grabbing distance to use as a force multiplier. (probably no rudimentary lathes tho') ;)

    If you own a bicycle, does it have a cable and padlock to secure it when out and about? Maybe you need a spare to place in your backpack?

    Wear a belt? How about a good stout one with a good cowboy belt buckle securely fastened to it?

    Even when you do age a bit and carry different tools about you, you will avoid conflict unless lethal force is forced upon you. THEN, you let the tiger out. But you best NOT be surprised and behind the old power curve.

    It's the "Software, not the hardware", as some old timer (not me) here used to preach. Methinks he was and is correct.

    So, wherever you are, look around you. For "Them"... and if you cannot leave right freakin now... for whatever you can grab.
     
  12. Godsgunman

    Godsgunman Member

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    +1 for Noah! Good solid advice
     
  13. Tirod

    Tirod Member

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    "Minor," "lethal," "concealable", and no training?

    Here's the thing: as a teenager, it's the other teenagers who are the biggest threat. That's because poor risk assessment and developing overloads of testosterone trigger unacceptable behavior. Most of them drink and drive, which is the biggest killer. Don't.

    As a minor, there's not much you can do, precisely because being a minor implies with a broad stroke that mature adult decision making isn't yet possible. Therefore, the weapons of a mature adult are not an appropriate resource. Lethal weapons aren't even a normal choice for adults, either, which shows that the "need" to have that level of protection is possibly overstated. Most Americans don't carry concealed or even think about it.

    As for training, it's not an option. It's required. No responsible adult will simply hand over the keys to "lethal force" to a minor and play the odds. That's because THEY will be legally responsible for the weapons misuse - they are the adult. The minor is actually held less responsible, that is the position the law is taking, and why the law doesn't grant the privileges. It restricts them.

    That doesn't always set well, and may not be fair. Under the law, you could be the acknowledged child of Immaculate Conception, too bad. Minor means minor.

    Check into the martial arts available in your area, I'm not suggesting some kung fu studio with payments. There are others. The basic point is that to defend oneself adequately with a weapon first requires a grasp of bare handed self defense. That is likely taught by your own police department - who offer the course to those who learn the real indicators of oncoming conflict and how to handle the situation without resorting to lethal force. If the bullies can't beat you down, they give up. Predators look for easy prey, not challenges.

    As you will discover, there is a huge difference between lethal force, and disabling. The latter is much more effective and requires less "horsepower." Twelve year old girls who've been appropriately trained can keep a grown male from doing much, and that's the entire point. It's not an exercise in overwhelming power, it's an art in applying enough power in the right place to make the perpetrator give up. It doesn't take much. But it's not commonly known, either.

    You will have to train. Something worth having is usually never free.
     
  14. Russ Jackson

    Russ Jackson member

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    Forget the weapon at this time. Get yourself into a Karate class or some other Martial Arts. It will teach you discipline as well as defending yourself. The weapons will follow...Russ
     
  15. Fred Fuller

    Fred Fuller Moderator Emeritus

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    Situational awareness is your best weapon. Crime doesn't just happen, it is a process, and knowing how that process develops can go a long way toward helping you avoid it.

    See http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/five_stages.html for a start point, and spend a lot more time reading other relevant areas of this site. But that's genuine crime, and that isn't the kind of violence that ensnares most teens. If you want the best single tutorial I have seen so far to help you avoid the kind of violence most teens get involved with, buy yourself a copy of Rory Miller's book Meditations On Violence - http://www.amazon.com/Meditations-V..._B002M54CNW_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1354204980&sr=1-3. What gets most teenage males in trouble is what Miller calls "the monkey dance." If you know how to recognize it as it develops, you are a lot less likely to get caught up in it.

    Never heard of 'the monkey dance' before? It's just a name for a process, that's all, and there are other names for it. See:

    http://laguardianangels.org/fear-pride-monkey-brain-and-not-stepping-on-your-dick/

    http://thestrikingpost.blogspot.com/2008/08/monkey-dance-in-real-life.html

    http://ymaa.com/articles/violence-dynamics

    https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/ccm-columns/features/the-group-monkey-dance-social-violence/

    http://chirontraining.blogspot.com/2011/03/self-analysis.html

    Mindset, skillset, toolset - it isn't just a SIG line...
     
  16. Sam1911

    Sam1911 Moderator

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    Seeings as this is exactly what I was going to post, I'm going to "embiggen" it:

    If you want the best single tutorial I have seen so far to help you avoid that kind of violence, buy yourself a copy of Rory Miller's book Meditations On Violence - http://www.amazon.com/Meditations-V..._B002M54CNW_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1354204980&sr=1-3. What gets most teenage males in trouble is what Miller calls "the monkey dance." If you know how to recognize it as it develops, you are a lot less likely to get caught up in it.

    Many people "defend" themselves throughout their whole lives by not being where trouble is and not doing the things that attract or open them to predation. There is a whole lot to know and understand about use of force, most especially LETHAL force, in justifiable self defense. While you're searching for tools and skills to assist with the last ditch -- all else has failed and I'm about to DIE -- aspect of self-defense, take the time to develop the first-rank, front-line defensive tools you'll actually use most often.
     
  17. Il Duca

    Il Duca Member

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    LOTS of sound advice here. As many have said in one way or another, the best weapon at your disposal until you are of age is right between your ears. I can't think of anything other than a pocket knife that will deliver deadly force and not incur a concealed weapons charge. And a pocket knife is by no means a good first line of defense. There are plenty of good non lethal options though. OC spray is a good one. Or how about a solid flashlight with a striking bezel? Makes a great fist shot and can deliver a powerful hit. Most tac lights have a high power strobe option as well, very handy- especially after dark.

    But most of all, situational awareness is your friend. Don't just look for signs of trouble- expect them. I work in a field where SA is very important and has helped me avoid a couple situations that could have ended very badly. I always approach anything with my mind going: "What would I do if that guy _____?", "Where's my out if ____?", etc.
     
  18. Owen Sparks

    Owen Sparks member

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    The thing that I like about sticks is that they are highly effective at stopping an attacker when applied to arms or knees without running the risk of a manslaughter charge. As long as your stick serves some other function people will not think of it as a weapon. I usually choose a walking stick as it is legal everywhere but given the choice I prefer a slightly shorter stick. For example, I carry a 2 piece pool cue in a sheath in my car and I carry it over my shoulder like a sword scabbard when I have to go into the city and need both hands free. The thin half is just a prop. The butt end is the weapon. If you don't like the idea of a walking cane because of your age or whatever look into a cheap pool cue. As long as there is a pool table within walking distance no one can prove that you were not on the way to shoot some 8 ball and you will have plausable deniability. Use some common sense though, walk away from trouble if you can and if you have to use it as a weapon avoid hitting the attackers head or neck. A soild blow to the hand or forearm will stop the bad guy from being able to punch or grab you and give you time to get away.

    Some may find it odd that I give this advice to a minor but young people are often victims of violence usually at the hands of other minors who may lack the judgement to know when to stop. There was a bad incident at a park in my town a few years back where a youth was chased down, tackled and beaten senseless by a group of teenage boys after trying to outrun them.
     
  19. isaac.eck

    isaac.eck Member

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    Thanks everyone, your advice has helped me alot.
     
  20. JShirley

    JShirley Administrator Staff Member

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    Good advice from almost everyone.

    In addition to staying away from bad situations and people, and remaining aware, get a metal 2 AA flashlight and look up kubaton and yarawa techniques. Then practice. And carry your flashlight everywhere. And if you never need to use your light defensively, it can still help keep you safe.

    Peace,

    John
     
  21. Texan Scott

    Texan Scott Member

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    Isaac,
    The advice given by Noah is wonderful, a
    d many others have said very profound, important things you ought to take to heart.

    I can add only this: many of us here, as law enforcement, military, or even civilians, have been touched by violence, been hurt, hurt others, or taken lives. Please, PLEASE never take it lightly... you might think you know, but you DON'T know how terrible and traumatic it is, even if you come out on the good end ... because there is no good end. Surviving a fight to the death is the second worst thing that can happen.
    Be humble. Be patient. Be sober. Above all, be safe.
     
  22. JShirley

    JShirley Administrator Staff Member

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    Okay, taking a life is not something to be done lightly or carelessly, but there are many things that are worse. Studies show that it's the extreme danger that causes PTSD, not merely taking a life. Bluntly, I've killed a whole passel of folks. Since my weapons outranged or just plain outshot theirs, it never bothers me: it's just something that happened in a nasty little war.

    John
     
  23. DNS

    DNS Member

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    Pepper spray is great stuff just remember to be upwind.
    Also a defensive pen or kubaton is another option.
    Its a good idea to read up on knife laws in your area before picking a pocket knife.

    I'd suggest all the above so you have options.


    A couple of well aimed rocks has gotten good results for thousands of years now.
    Assuming you carry a pack you've got a place for your rock 'samples'. Smaller ones provide ammo for wrist rockets too.
     
  24. Deltaboy1984

    Deltaboy1984 Member

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    I would add a solid metal ink pen like a Cross or Zebra F-701!
     
  25. CWL

    CWL Member

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    A minor asking responsible adults online for ways on how to kill is just wrong.

    My suggestion is to get involved with school-based sports programs like wrestling or better, boxing if available. This will give you better situational awareness training as well as speed & fast feet. If you can get your parents to pay for (or you can afford it yourself), get involved in introductory martial arts programs and decide if this is a direction you want to go.

    This seems better than carrying weaponry, even disguised weaponry, all of which are likely to get a minor in trouble. People need to remember that minors do not have the same rights as adults, especially in and near school zones.
     
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