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Self propelled Gas Piston System

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by zollen, May 29, 2011.

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  1. zollen

    zollen Member

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    [​IMG]

    Advantages of this piston upgrade kit concept:

    1. Same level of complexity as the standard AR gas piston system
    2. Zero to Minimum modification required for installing this piston system to any standard AR platforms.
    3. The installation of a folding stock on a standard AR is now possible.
    4. A custom BCG may also provided so owner would not have to saw off the last part of their standard BCG.
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2011
  2. Dreamcast270mhz

    Dreamcast270mhz Member

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    It looks like there would be a reduction in overall length, as well. People on the AR platform however seem to have a prejudice against gas systems, when a short stroke adds little mass to the the bolt group.
     
  3. kingpin008

    kingpin008 Member

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    As mentioned in other threads I'm no whiz when it comes to reading/understanding schematics, but what brings it back into battery once the round has been fired and the case is extracted?
     
  4. Dreamcast270mhz

    Dreamcast270mhz Member

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    The spring inside the front piston would i presume?
     
  5. Zane

    Zane Member

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    To put a spring under the gas tube, like that, it appears that the tube would be outside the hand guard and above the top rail of the upper. That would require significant modification and I would expect terrible carrier tilt. Moving the buffer spring so that the piston pulls the BC forward would also make disassembly/reassembly very difficult as the BCG would need to be fixed to the piston.
     
  6. zollen

    zollen Member

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    The front double buffer tubes are half the diameter of standard buffer tubes, the double buffer tubes should be small enough to be fit inside the handguard/rail. The front double buffer tube could be designed such a way for allowing quick detach/disassembly.
     
  7. zollen

    zollen Member

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    Yes. I was thinking about two stages piston (front piston and back piston). The spring was designed to push the front piston back to its original position.
     
  8. zollen

    zollen Member

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    As for the carrier tilt issue, it would depends on how carrier key cup secures the carrier key in place.
     
  9. kingpin008

    kingpin008 Member

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    Yeah...I just realized that the blue slashes = springs. I'mma go sit in the corner for a few...:eek:
     
  10. zollen

    zollen Member

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    Are there any technical limitations about this concept (comparing to the conventional design)?
     
  11. Shear_stress

    Shear_stress Member

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    Yes. Despite what you say, you have made the AR-15 more complicated. You have added at least two springs, another buffer, some pistons, some device for pushing on the bolt carrier, and a housing to put all this stuff in.

    At the same time you have created the following problems: 1.) you've put a spring in a place where it would be exposed to high pressure burning propellent, 2.) you have greatly increased the likelihood of carrier tilt (the Stoner design uses gas to push along the centerline of the bolt carrier, not the top) and 3.) the added complexity will probably require significant dimensional changes to the handguard and upper receiver, negating compatibility with standard AR parts.

    All this to address a supposed problem (lack of a folding stock) that hasn't prevented the AR-15 from becoming one of the most popular rifles on the market. Not only that, but the real or perceived drawbacks of the Stoner design have been amply examined in dozens of more elegant designs over the past few decades (in particular, take a look at the AR-180 and its many, many progeny as well as the Daewoo K1 and K2/DR-200).

    I appreciate your interest in firearms design and your attempts to be original. But, take the following from someone who spent a few years doing mechanical design and engineering professionally:

    1.) Originality for its own sake is fun for the designer, but that's about it.

    2.) A successful design is the result of answering a meaningful question or addressing a significant unmet need. It starts with a clear, realistic set of requirements, not vice versa. You need to be much more honest with yourself as to whether the seeming problems you're trying to solve can be done so without introducing many more drawbacks.

    3.) I know this is the age of instant gratification, but good design takes a while. Blasting every brainstorm you have across the internet does two things: first, you open yourself up to much more criticism than necessary and second, you negate the patentability of your designs by exposing them to the public before they are protected.

    If I were you, I would spend more time learning about the current firearms state of the art. Get your hands on all the guns you can. Shoot them. Tear them apart. Get every firearms book you can and read it cover to cover. Finally, spend a lot more time on the internet asking questions rather than trying to post answers.
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2011
  12. Vern Humphrey

    Vern Humphrey Member

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    In the diagram, the bolt is not connected to the buffer -- the system is direct gas action, like the current M16 (Note the carrier key cup in the lower drawing.)

    The buffer works on the gas system, not the operating parts, so you still need a buffer and return spring for the bolt.
     
  13. lmccrock

    lmccrock Member

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    zollen, forgetting gas/piston/DI for a moment, you need SOME kind of charging handle. Looks like the Carrier Key Cup would not be compatible with the existing design.
     
  14. zollen

    zollen Member

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    Thanks for your inputs. Let me clarify my concept (It is not a design)

    1. The two buffer springs were protected by the sealed heat resistance composite buffer tube casing.

    2. I was hoping the carrier tilt issue could be resolved by the carrier key cup secure the carrier key tightly in place. The purpose of carrier key cup is to allow the push rod to push/pull the BCG.

    3. I simply rearrange the buffer tube to the front. The only complexity is the double buffer tubes. The two buffer tube would have the same length but much smaller in diameter in order to be fit inside a handguard/rail system. The complexity is not really that much worse than the standard gas piston AR design.
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2011
  15. zollen

    zollen Member

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    If you look closer, you would see the BCG is tightly secured by the carrier key cup so that the rod can push/pull the BCG. The rod also connect with the internal double buffer tubes levers, so when the piston get pushed back, it would also compress the two buffer tubes springs. The rod, piston, BCG and carrier key cup all move as one.
     
  16. kozak6

    kozak6 Member

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    What exactly are you designing? It it a gas-piston upper for an AR-15, or is it a new firearm entirely?

    It would be better to flip the piston assembly upside down. It would lessen carrier tilt significantly. Look up the OA-98. You might find it interesting.
     
  17. zollen

    zollen Member

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    It is a self-propelled piston upgrade kit for standard AR. The kit also eliminate the need of having a rear buffer tube.
     
  18. MX26

    MX26 Member

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    Why is everyone taking this so seriously? To the OP, good for you for thinking creatively. There's no reason that someone should be excessively berated for attempting to share some casual ideas over the forum. If you have nothing constructive to say, don't say anything at all. Look at all this needless garbage that's been posted in response to both of the recent AR design posts.
     
  19. kwelz

    kwelz Member

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    No it doesn't. Where does the bolt go in your design? It still has to reciprocate. And before you say you can cut down on the carrier, no you can't. The mass of the carrier is very important to the function of the gun.
     
  20. Rubber_Duck

    Rubber_Duck Member

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    The idea is to cut off the rear half of the bolt carrier, cutting it in half and allowing it to reciprocate inside the upper receiver.
     
  21. kwelz

    kwelz Member

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    Read the rest of my post about Carrier weight.

    No to mention you are shifting a lot of the weight forward. This will lead to an unbalanced gun.
     
  22. xtriggerman

    xtriggerman Member

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    The off center forces on such a thin op piston rod would more than likely end up with either a fractured or bent rod. Too much push/pull on to thin a rod from off center resistence. Look at how well the Daewoo system is designed with center line forces between piston & recoil. Add to that the massive piston rod bolt key. Your concept is a glass slipper by comparison. Sorry
     
  23. zollen

    zollen Member

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    I was thinking a custom shorter version (but same weight and same weight distribution) of BCG provided by this kit... would safe owners from destroying their standard BCG.
     
  24. kwelz

    kwelz Member

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    How do you plan on making it shorter and still weigh the same?
     
  25. zollen

    zollen Member

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    There are a number of approaches.

    1. Using more dense metal.
    2. Redistribution the weight to a new feature of a BCG that would not interfere the normal operation of the BCG.
    3. Complete redesign of BCG
     
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