Seller doesn't want to disclose serial #.

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All a dishonest person would have to do, it find a "local youcal FFL" (also very
dishonest. and needing too make a fast buck); to backdate an invoice (prior
to your stolen report), and say that he had said firearm stolen from him~! :eek:

Oh ya, there are hundreds of FFL's ou there willing to falsify their records and risk federal prison for the price of a transfer fee ...
 
I would suggest the OP take his money elsewhere and make sure to tell the buyer he lost a sale.

LOL like that will matter. Whenever I have sold off one of my guns, I have had multiple offers. If one buyer wants to be difficult, I will just sell to the next. I am not a business, and I am not Wal Mart. I don't care if I lose one person's business. Its my gun until it is sold, and will be sold with my conditions, not the buyers.

Oh ya, there are hundreds of FFL's ou there willing to falsify their records and risk federal prison for the price of a transfer fee ...

You somehow think there is not a single bad FFL out there? There are quite a few. The ATF is pretty good at finding them, but they can do a lot of damage before they are caught.
 
Whenever I have sold off one of my guns, I have had multiple offers. If one buyer wants to be difficult, I will just sell to the next. I am not a business, and I am not Wal Mart. I don't care if I lose one person's business.

like you represent the entire population of gun owners selling their guns. :rolleyes: there are plenty of sellers who are anxious to sell something right away and will eventually think differently when their gun isn't selling in the time frame they want to.
 
like you represent the entire population of gun owners selling their guns.

Ahh... so I cannot make blanket statements about gun owners, but its fine to make blanket statements attesting to the legitimacy of all FFL holders.

Anyway, of course their are more anxious sellers than me, and perhaps you can coerce them into divulging information I would not.

If you want the serial number of my gun to check and see if it is stolen, then I should be able to run a background check on the potential buyer to make sure he is not a felon or other prohibited person.

In fact, if a buyer was willing to let me have all his personal info and do a background check, I would be willing to let him have the gun's serial number, but I doubt few buyers would be willing to do that.

The best way to handle gun trading is the old fashioned way. I tell you the gun is not stolen. You tell me you are not a felon. You give me the money. I give you the gun. We shake hands. We then never see each other again.
 
All a dishonest person would have to do, it find a "local youcal FFL" (also very dishonest. and needing too make a fast buck); to backdate an invoice (prior
to your stolen report), and say that he had said firearm stolen from him

And then the "dishonest FFL" would need to make sure that whoever is logged into his book in the "received from" column is in on the fraud and will verify that they sold the gun to the FFL in the first place. and so on, ad infintum.

Isn't paranoia a fun thing? :neener:
(I sometimes think that paranoia and "gun ju ju" go together. :rolleyes:)
 
Lone_Gunman said:
...If you want the serial number of my gun to check and see if it is stolen, then I should be able to run a background check on the potential buyer to make sure he is not a felon or other prohibited person....
Not really. If you sell a gun to a prohibited person, you're only in trouble if you knew or should have known that the buyer was a prohibited person. You have no legal duty to do a background check.

If I buy a stolen gun, whatever else happens, the gun is going to be confiscated. I'll be out the gun, and I'll also be out what I paid unless I can find the seller and get the money back from him.

Lone_Gunman said:
....I tell you the gun is not stolen. You tell me you are not a felon. You give me the money. I give you the gun.....
Trust is nice. But I've still got a gun that may or may not have been stolen, and you've got real money. In any case, there's a limit on how far I will trust you, a complete stranger. And there should be a limit on how far you should trust me, a complete stranger.

I notice that you're not proposing to accept my promise to give you the money tomorrow for the gun you give me today. Why shouldn't I also be able to verify your title to the gun before I give you the money (and you give me the gun)?
 
So you don't want to supply the serial number to a prospective buyer. That's your choice.

The guy that bought my STOLEN AR swore he'd never buy another one without checking to see if the gun was stolen.

The time and money he spent proving he wasn't the one that stole it would have bought him a number of guns and ammo to go with them.


If you don't want to give me the serial number so I can verify it isn't stolen then I'll buy from someone else that will.

Good thing about guns, they usually make thousands of most models that I'd be interested in and I can wait to avoid all the legal trouble.

:neener:
 
Lone_Gunman said:
How does checking to see if a gun has been reported stolen verify that I have title to the gun?
It doesn't completely. But if it has been reported stolen, then you don't have title to the gun (or it's at least what we call a cloud on your claim of title).
 
But if it has been reported stolen, then you don't have title to the gun (or it's at least what we call a cloud on your claim of title).

I bought a stolen revolver from an FFL once. Obviously, at the time, neither of us knew it was stolen. I got a receipt. It was later determined to have been stolen. The ATF took the gun, and the FFL refunded my money. However, I technically had title to the firearm (ie, I had a reciept which proved I had purchased it from an FFL).

Even if a stolen gun is returned to its legal owner, it has been known to stay in the data base as stolen indefinitely.

It doesnt really matter though. There is no way to be 100% sure any gun you buy from an individual is not stolen.
 
I bought a stolen revolver from an FFL once. ... I got a receipt. It was later determined to have been stolen. ...I technically had title to the firearm (ie, I had a reciept ...)....
Nope, legal title doesn't work that way.

As a mater of law one can't acquire title to stolen property, even by a good faith purchase. The stolen gun was never the FFL's to sell, and it was never yours -- receipt or no receipt.
 
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"The seller is telling me that he bought it new from a dealer and does not want to disclose the serial # prior to purchase."

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DO NOT WASTE YOUR TIME WITH THIS SELLER!
 
If the buyer and seller can't agree on the terms of the transaction, then the transaction doesn't need to occur. You decide what you want, he decides what he wants to give.

He can sell it to someone else, and you can buy from someone else.

No problem.
 
Lone_Gunman said:
...There is no way to be 100% sure any gun you buy from an individual is not stolen. ...
True BUT--

[1] If it's not in the data base as reported stolen, that increases the chances that it is not.

[2] If it is in the data base as reported stolen, that increases the chances that it is.

Since if the buyer is found to have bought a stolen gun, at best he will have to give up the gun. He will also be out the money unless (1) he can find the seller; and (2) the seller is willing to give him the money back. (Of course, if he finds the seller and the seller won't refund the money, he can sue the seller, but that's more hassles and expense.) In addition, our buyer may be in for some uncomfortable time while the authorities try to figure out whether he stole the gun himself or at least knew it was stolen.

So the possible downsides to innocently buying a stolen gun suggest to me that a buyer is wise and prudent to at least to whatever he can (like check a data base using the entire serial number) to be able to increase his confidence level that the roscoe he'd buying isn't hot.
 
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Actually as this conversation has evolved I have decided that it would be reasonable to give a potential buyer a serial number before the purchase if the buyer will provide:
1. name
2. address
3. DOB
4. sworn statement that he does not own, nor has he ever owned or reported stolen, the gun in question, and agrees that he will not reveal the serial number to any third party other than law enforcement, and then only for the purpose of checking to see it it has been reported stolen.

Would most buyers be willing to provide this? I am not sure, but if so my concerens about revealing the SN before the sale would be quelled.
 
If you want to buy, and he wants to sell

Negotiate. Or set up a ftf meeting in a neutral location-like a city range. You check out the gun and his proof and he you. Remember too, that a seller can get burned by an unscrupulous buyer as well as the other way around. So try to understand both positions. Offer to exchange CPL/FFLs and IDs. Write a transfer agreement with copies of the licenses, date and a witness, if you both want.

If you are both honest, law-abiding citizens, neither should have a problem with working something like this out, IMHO.

I have bought and sold a few guns Online. If the seller does not want proof of who I am or proof of his legal ownership or the buyer is sketchy, I just abort, and move on. But I must say that I have only been burned one time since I turned 21, (I was a 21 YO newb) and that was many moons ago. After that, I decided on only selling to someone whom with I was comfortable doing business.

Hope this helps

Oh, I almost forgot to say check the boards for his reputation. Both buyers and sellers can give reports on gun transactions. A seller or buyer who burns people is not going to be able to do so for very long in a community setting.

Shooter429
 
Lone_Gunman said:
Actually as this conversation has evolved I have decided that it would be reasonable to give a potential buyer a serial number before the purchase if the buyer will provide:
1. name
2. address
3. DOB
4. sworn statement that he does not own, nor has he ever owned or reported stolen, the gun in question, and agrees that he will not reveal the serial number to any third party other than law enforcement, and then only for the purpose of checking to see it it has been reported stolen....
FWIW, I think this would be a reasonable compromise. Although I'd suggest that you might consider settling for a "signed" statement instead of a "sworn" statement. It would have the same legal effect; and getting a properly sworn statement would require finding a notary who was authorized to administer an oath.

Personally, I would provide this information to a seller in connection with the purchase of a gun from him, as long as he provides me with the serial number and the chance to check it out.
 
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