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"selling" reloads

Discussion in 'Handloading and Reloading' started by Reefinmike, Dec 8, 2012.

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  1. jcwit

    jcwit Member

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    Blarby I agree with you but put a link up to back up your statements.
     
  2. jcwit

    jcwit Member

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    I have no registered firearms and have never had any, but I have many firearms.
     
  3. blarby

    blarby Member

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    Sure, here ya go :


    http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-4.pdf


    Quote:
    18 USC § 923. Licensing
    (a) No person shall engage in the business of importing, manufacturing, or dealing in firearms, or importing or manufacturing ammunition, until he has filed an application with and received a license to do so from the Attorney General. The application shall be in such form and contain only that information necessary to determine eligibility for licensing as the Attorney General shall by regulation prescribe and shall include a photograph and fingerprints of the applicant. Each applicant shall pay a fee for obtaining such a license, a separate fee being required for each place in which the applicant is to do business, as follows:
    (1) If the applicant is a manufacturer—
    (A) of destructive devices, ammunition for destructive devices or armor piercing ammunition, a fee of $1,000 per year;
    (B) of firearms other than destructive devices, a fee of $50 per year; or
    (C) of ammunition for firearms, other than ammunition for destructive devices or armor piercing ammunition, a fee of $10 per year.
    Quote:
    18 USC § 921. Definitions
    (a) As used in this chapter

    (10) The term “manufacturer” means any person engaged in the business of manufacturing firearms or ammunition for purposes of sale or distribution; and the term “licensed manufacturer” means any such person licensed under the provisions of this chapter.

    (17)(A) The term “ammunition” means ammunition or cartridge cases, primers, bullets, or propellent powder designed for use in any firearm.

    (21) The term “engaged in the business” means—
    (B) as applied to a manufacturer of ammunition, a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to manufacturing ammunition as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the sale or distribution of the ammunition manufactured;



    As stated, its pretty clear.


    You wanna explain to a judge and/or jury how you weren't trying to make a profit by selling those bullets ?

    Be my guest.

    " but I'm not trying" ........

    Thats an explanation thats going to clean out every single cent you've ever owned in the telling, against an adversary that for all intents and purposes has unlimited resources with which to prosecute you- remember that.

    If you are zoned for it- its not a hard license to get.

    Believe me, the zoning is trickier than you may think......... Dont believe me ? Ask Longdayjake- he is going through this right now.

    Don't believe him or me ?

    Ask Brad over at Mo Bullet.

    Dont believe any of us ?

    Call the ATF.

    Dont believe the ATF ?

    Do what I did- and pay for a legal expert to give you an opinion on how this would play out legally.

    Philosophically, I could debate livelihood and profit till I expired from lack of breath. In reality, it apparently doesn't play that way in federal court.

    as explained to me, at the tune of some substantial dollars per hour:


    "
    The language is specifically vague to allow the unintentionally ignorant the occasional exchange of materials for monetary compensation. It is not worded in such a manner as to allow those who wish to do so to produce and distribute ammunition for compensation up to, but not crossing, the line of profit and loss.

    Its one of the few areas of federal law that is worded in such a manner as to allow the judiciary some manner of leeway in prosecution of the "unsophisticated layman".

    "


    Without going into specifics as to the why, or the how, I'll simply relate the advice I paid to receive :

    "Want to collect a dollar ? Get the license. "

    And thats all I'm gonna say about that...
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2012
  4. jcwit

    jcwit Member

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    Thanks, needed that to someone else.
     
  5. 45lcshooter

    45lcshooter Member

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    So from that if i read it correctly, no one unless you have a license may manufacture ammo. Under federal law.

    I beleive the ATFE has bigger fish to fry than a local yokler reloading in his basement.

    I know several people breakng that law, just like people speeding. Lol.
     
  6. sfchemist

    sfchemist Member

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    Thanks Float Pilot. That is one classic definition of the legal profession. I've cut and pasted it for future reference...... with your permission.

    Keep your wings level, nose straight and the shiny side up.
     
  7. jcwit

    jcwit Member

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    As do I, does not make it right or legal. I also know alot of folks who have paid hefty fines for speeding and other traffic violations.

    To not obey laws and rules only leads to anarchy.

    As far as reloading for others? In a word, Don't.
     
  8. medalguy

    medalguy Member

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    I had an extended discussion with a very friendly ATF agent a couple of years ago about reloading. Essentially it boils down to this: If you sell ammunition you reloaded with your components, they consider it manufacturing. If a friend buys powder, brass, primers, and bullets and brings them over for you to reload, it's not manufacturing ammunition.

    This does not cover the liability aspect, whether you're selling or giving away ammo.
     
  9. ArchAngelCD

    ArchAngelCD Member

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    The only people other than myself who shoot my reloads are 2 of my sons and that's only because they take it off my shelf and go shooting! lol
     
  10. bds
    • Contributing Member

    bds Member

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    .
    You may get away with it until someone complains for whatever the reason ... "Yes officer/your honor, he sold me the reloads that blew up my gun and injured my hand ... now I want him to replace the damaged pistol with a new one and pay for the hospital bills along with my lost time from work/wages"

    We regularly see threads/posts of squib rounds and KaBooms. If your reloads cause any damage and/or injury (let's say your friend rechambered the same round several times and reduced the OAL on a max load that caused a KaBoom from weakened mixed range brass that's been reloaded several times), things may change very quickly. Once your reloads are out of YOUR sight, who knows what can happen to them ... but if anything does go wrong, you can almost be certain the blame will come right back at you!
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2012
  11. Lost Sheep

    Lost Sheep Member

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    How much room is there between 1) "the purpose of livelihood and profit" and 2) "only for personal use".

    Does the law mention advertising? Does the law mention "marketing"? No. Does the law require the the purpose be the primary purpose? No. "Personal use" generally means use by one's self and one's self only. This is often extended to immediate members of one's own household/family (as in use of game meat harvested for personal use).

    You may argue the rightness or wrongness of the law regarding the sharing, trading, gifting or sale of personally loaded cartridges, but I don't think the law has any wiggle room. It's illegal. Not heavily enforced, maybe. But I wouldn't count on it.

    Lost Sheep
     
  12. Float Pilot

    Float Pilot Member

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    Back when I was a Law Dawg I attempted to work some cases with the ATF. I noted some issues that repeated themselves enough times to be of some concern.

    1. Real criminals usually got away with whatever they were doing, because the ATF would drop the case or bungle it.

    2. They always seem to take an odd, yet very high interest in some regular Joe with a nice job, family and house just because he was an NRA type.

    3. They never stopped asking me why I knew so much about firearms. And they never were truthfull in telling the real cops about their part of a case.

    You do not want those guys in your life. I am sure whoever they assigned to read all these blogs is taking notes... Probably in his mom's basement apartment, while wearing Batman PJs...
     
  13. Queen_of_Thunder

    Queen_of_Thunder member

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    While I have yet to start reloading I do have to point out that I would never allow use by anyone other than myself any ammo I've reloaded. The liability is simply not worth it. All it takes is one double charged round for you to lose it all. Just aint worth it in my book.
     
  14. Walkalong

    Walkalong Moderator

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    I think we have answered this one.
     
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