HydrostatiK
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- Nov 1, 2009
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- 41
You can get a saiga AK47 chambered in .308. Ruger mini-30 is good. M14s are good. Many people can afford several mosin nagants.
Semi-auto 7.62 recommendations?
- Thread starter dmancornell
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If you want to be technical, the StG45 designed by Mauserwerk was the original, and that was derived from MG42 and the patents of Stecke. Vorlgrimmer and Loffler from Mauserwerk went on to France's CEAM post war and refined the StG45 concept into the Carabine Mitrailleuse Modèle 1950. Vorlgrimer later went to work for CETME, and further refined what became the Modelo A. The Modelo A wasn't built until 1957.
It's true that Century made a mess of the CETME rifle, but the chief advantages of the CEMTE and the G3 were that they were (originally) much cheaper to produce than the FAL and other 'old style' rifles.
The main concern with all roller delayed rifles is that they are not fully locked and require correct roller geometry to be safe. For civilians owners, this is generally not a problem as the round counts are fairly low. In military usage, the rifles were meant to be cycled out of service when no longer within spec. Unfortunately, many of the builds using spare parts do not headspace correctly, and require the use of the +1 and larger rollers. Barrels are welded to the receiver, making replacement impractical, and as noted, if one accidentally closes the bolt head when field stripped it is virtually impossible to correct the problem so that the gun can be reassembled.
However, that being said, this design is fairly tolerant of neglect, making it ideal for third world soldiers.
Some people love them, other hate them. I've owned a number of CETMEs and real HK rifles. They work, but are not on the top of my list. YMMV.
My vote by a slim margin, the M14 first and FN FAL second.
A lot of this comes down to opinion and what the individual experience is. I own, but have never gotten used to pistol gripped rifles and shotguns. They feal awkward and un-natural to me compared to a traditional stock. I run what I like and listen to the young'uns chirp about the superiority of the pistol gripped rifle. Its what I like and I do not care what others think about it but I do brutally understand that others have the same passion for pistol gripped rifles.
My personal experience with the M14 safety is excellent. I like it a lot and do not find it un-natural to use. I am also blind in my right eye and have to shoot left handed which really makes the M14 safety convienant for me. I have been around guns for 35+ years and this is the first negative comment I have heard about the M14 safety by learned military personnel.
I am in the market for a stock Saiga .308 because my experience with the other Saiga's and AK's I own is excellent. The reason I am going to buy one of these is for a SHTF type rifle. It has acceptable accuracy (not in the league of the M14 though) and the reliability factor would be much greater than that of the other semi .308's in a true SHTF scenario where maintenance is less of a factor over a period of time. It is no M14 or FN FAL but it's reliability factor takes precedence for me in a pure survival situation. I will be putting proper peep sights on it with a proper sight radius though. The sights are terrible on AK's.
I am not considering the Saiga .308 because of its weight savings though. Not at all. The 16" Saiga weighs 8lbs 5 ounces empty and the Socom 16" M1A weighs 8lbs 9 ounces. A 4 ounce difference does not make the M14 a deal breaker for me.
A lot of this comes down to opinion and what the individual experience is. I own, but have never gotten used to pistol gripped rifles and shotguns. They feal awkward and un-natural to me compared to a traditional stock. I run what I like and listen to the young'uns chirp about the superiority of the pistol gripped rifle. Its what I like and I do not care what others think about it but I do brutally understand that others have the same passion for pistol gripped rifles.
My personal experience with the M14 safety is excellent. I like it a lot and do not find it un-natural to use. I am also blind in my right eye and have to shoot left handed which really makes the M14 safety convienant for me. I have been around guns for 35+ years and this is the first negative comment I have heard about the M14 safety by learned military personnel.
I am in the market for a stock Saiga .308 because my experience with the other Saiga's and AK's I own is excellent. The reason I am going to buy one of these is for a SHTF type rifle. It has acceptable accuracy (not in the league of the M14 though) and the reliability factor would be much greater than that of the other semi .308's in a true SHTF scenario where maintenance is less of a factor over a period of time. It is no M14 or FN FAL but it's reliability factor takes precedence for me in a pure survival situation. I will be putting proper peep sights on it with a proper sight radius though. The sights are terrible on AK's.
I am not considering the Saiga .308 because of its weight savings though. Not at all. The 16" Saiga weighs 8lbs 5 ounces empty and the Socom 16" M1A weighs 8lbs 9 ounces. A 4 ounce difference does not make the M14 a deal breaker for me.
I was in a gunshop today, where they just received a DSA FAL like this
http://www.dsarms.com/Mini-SA58-FAL-OSW-Rifle-Semi-Auto-308-Cal----SA58OSW/productinfo/SA58OSW/
$2800 bucks with the options he picked.
All the guys in the shop were like "oh my gosh this rocks so much" "I need this" "This is the sweetest thing I have ever seen"
It had some lame duracoat camo on it, and looked in my opinion, like butt.
I cannot imagine the flash and concussion from shooting a 308 from a barrel that short, but it is not on my short list of things to do.
Its like when people say "308" peoples pockets fly open, and the wallets come out.
I dunno. I think I will never understand.
I mean, for 2800 dollars, I could have either that 308 rifle and not one round to shoot out of it, not even an optic, or a AR-15 and what...like 3000 rounds of ammo?
Is it REALLY that super de duper to be shooting a round that hits a bit harder?
Clue me in on WHY I need to lug a rifle that big / heavy around. What am I missing?
http://www.dsarms.com/Mini-SA58-FAL-OSW-Rifle-Semi-Auto-308-Cal----SA58OSW/productinfo/SA58OSW/
$2800 bucks with the options he picked.
All the guys in the shop were like "oh my gosh this rocks so much" "I need this" "This is the sweetest thing I have ever seen"
It had some lame duracoat camo on it, and looked in my opinion, like butt.
I cannot imagine the flash and concussion from shooting a 308 from a barrel that short, but it is not on my short list of things to do.
Its like when people say "308" peoples pockets fly open, and the wallets come out.
I dunno. I think I will never understand.
I mean, for 2800 dollars, I could have either that 308 rifle and not one round to shoot out of it, not even an optic, or a AR-15 and what...like 3000 rounds of ammo?
Is it REALLY that super de duper to be shooting a round that hits a bit harder?
Clue me in on WHY I need to lug a rifle that big / heavy around. What am I missing?
How do you want to set this rifle up? Will it be a "Swiss Army Gun" with all the fixin's including a coffee pot and reloading press? Then you should look into an AR platform with rails coming out of your picatinny. In all seriousness, the AR is the easiest to scope followed by the 91, the FAL and the M14.
What makes the 91 easy to scope is an aftermarket mount that clamps low over the receiver. Install short scope and make a cheekrest if needed. The scope has to be short to keep it from interfering with the charging handle.
The FAL is a bit more problematic because the scope mount replaces the top cover. The problem is that the topcover isn't solidly mounted to the receiver and needs to be removed to clean from the breach.
Optics on an M14 can be a royal pain with scope heights, mount stability and building up the cheekrest.
Without understanding what your "Walter Mitty Rifle" needs to do, it's hard to give you a good reccomendation. House defense? A Marlin lever action in 45 Colt or 357. Defending the ranch against zombies? A GAU in 7.62x51 and a billion rounds in the hopper.
Something handy that might need to answer a variety of tasks reliably at any time? What you spend time fixing up, shoot well and have the utmost confidence. For me that includes a couple of my bolt action hunting rifles, M1 Grand, M14, FAL and Colt Competition H-Bar. Once I get a problem sorted out with the charging handle on my PTR 91, it will be on that list too. There are no AKs listed because I don't like them and have little experience with them.
The most important factor when the chips are down is the person on the trigger. If that component fails, the rest of the system follows
What makes the 91 easy to scope is an aftermarket mount that clamps low over the receiver. Install short scope and make a cheekrest if needed. The scope has to be short to keep it from interfering with the charging handle.
The FAL is a bit more problematic because the scope mount replaces the top cover. The problem is that the topcover isn't solidly mounted to the receiver and needs to be removed to clean from the breach.
Optics on an M14 can be a royal pain with scope heights, mount stability and building up the cheekrest.
Without understanding what your "Walter Mitty Rifle" needs to do, it's hard to give you a good reccomendation. House defense? A Marlin lever action in 45 Colt or 357. Defending the ranch against zombies? A GAU in 7.62x51 and a billion rounds in the hopper.
Something handy that might need to answer a variety of tasks reliably at any time? What you spend time fixing up, shoot well and have the utmost confidence. For me that includes a couple of my bolt action hunting rifles, M1 Grand, M14, FAL and Colt Competition H-Bar. Once I get a problem sorted out with the charging handle on my PTR 91, it will be on that list too. There are no AKs listed because I don't like them and have little experience with them.
The most important factor when the chips are down is the person on the trigger. If that component fails, the rest of the system follows
Dom, you aren't missing a thing. The Siren Song of the 7.62x51 is one heard only by real men and women who have put such childhood things as the 5.56 aside...
In all seriousness, each caliber has it's job. As the saying goes "30 Caliber U.S.- Turning Cover Into Concealment for More Than a Century". More recoil, more penetration, more fun. The 30 caliber is also found in real steel and wood battlerifles like the '03, Garand, M14, FN49, FAL and G3. In combat the 30-06 and 7.62x51 hit hard and with finality. There is no argument as to the effectiveness of their terminal ballistics.
When you mentioned the shortness of the barrel length of that DSA, I was going to say something about the sharp muzzle blast of the 308 in a 16 inch barrel. My uncle had a Remington 600 Mohawk in 308 with a 16 inch barrel. It was fun to shoot and accurate even out to 500 yards or more, but that muzzle blast was a bastige! Imagine my surprise when I clicked on your link and discovered it was a 13 incher! YIKES!
Once in Arizona we heard thunderous booms from the local shooting pit, and we were over a mile away. Out of curiosity, we made our way to see what kind of monster they were cutting loose with. Was it a Ma Deuce 50 BMG? Turns out it was an HK53 in 308 with an 11 inch barrel on full rock & roll. I could feel the compression from each shot standing 10 feet behind it!
In all seriousness, each caliber has it's job. As the saying goes "30 Caliber U.S.- Turning Cover Into Concealment for More Than a Century". More recoil, more penetration, more fun. The 30 caliber is also found in real steel and wood battlerifles like the '03, Garand, M14, FN49, FAL and G3. In combat the 30-06 and 7.62x51 hit hard and with finality. There is no argument as to the effectiveness of their terminal ballistics.
When you mentioned the shortness of the barrel length of that DSA, I was going to say something about the sharp muzzle blast of the 308 in a 16 inch barrel. My uncle had a Remington 600 Mohawk in 308 with a 16 inch barrel. It was fun to shoot and accurate even out to 500 yards or more, but that muzzle blast was a bastige! Imagine my surprise when I clicked on your link and discovered it was a 13 incher! YIKES!
Once in Arizona we heard thunderous booms from the local shooting pit, and we were over a mile away. Out of curiosity, we made our way to see what kind of monster they were cutting loose with. Was it a Ma Deuce 50 BMG? Turns out it was an HK53 in 308 with an 11 inch barrel on full rock & roll. I could feel the compression from each shot standing 10 feet behind it!
Redneck with a 40
Member
- Joined
- Jul 26, 2006
- Messages
- 2,273
You might want to look at the FN-AR, its bad-ass.
You are correct, H20Man. Still, mounting a scope to the M14 is involved. The scope mounts that are easiest to install on the receiver aren't always stable and don't always fit without a bit of grinding. Getting a good cheek weld means lacing on a large leather piece, building up the stock, modifying the stock or replacing the stock with something that costs $600 and more. There is one mount that sets on top of the receiver and it's made by Smith Ent. or LRB (don't recall offhand which) that is stable and robust but the receiver has to be made to accept it during manufacture.
I love the M14. Mine is one of my favorite rifles. It's accurate, powerful, robust, has gorgeous wood and US peep sights are the best. However, it's much easier to scope a FAL and easier still to scope a 91.
Redneck, about that FN-AR- it's a Browning BAR with a detatchable box magazine and a goofy stock!
I love the M14. Mine is one of my favorite rifles. It's accurate, powerful, robust, has gorgeous wood and US peep sights are the best. However, it's much easier to scope a FAL and easier still to scope a 91.
Redneck, about that FN-AR- it's a Browning BAR with a detatchable box magazine and a goofy stock!
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DammitBoy
Member
Does anybody here have any experience with the POF-USA P308?
To scope an M14 type rifle, you want a Brookfield type mount. There are two good ones - SEI and Sadlak. I prefer the latter because they offer a custom fit service as some SA M1A aren't quite in spec for the purposes of scope mounting. The Sadlak requires one less wrench to mount, and the titanium version is quite a bite lighter.
Both the SEI and Sadlak mounts are totally solid and offer a nice picatinny rail for optics. as far as cheek rest, the best option I've found for a GI or wood stock is one of the kydex saddle rests, which can be adjusted to user preference.
Here's the sadlack with TPS rings and a Leupy Mk4 M3
Scoped M1A 'loaded' with Karsten cheek rest.
If you really want a scoped M14, you can always go with the JAE-100, which features a nice cheek rest and much better bedding than the GI stock. All for a mere $700+
I like a simpler, forward mounted optic, so have the Ultimak rail on my every day M1A.
Finally, if you want the ultimate trigger, you can install a Rader. It will allow you to adjust your M1A to a safe 1.5 pounds if you like them that light. I have mine set for 2.5, and nothing else save the AR-10 with aftermarket trigger comes close.
Both the SEI and Sadlak mounts are totally solid and offer a nice picatinny rail for optics. as far as cheek rest, the best option I've found for a GI or wood stock is one of the kydex saddle rests, which can be adjusted to user preference.
Here's the sadlack with TPS rings and a Leupy Mk4 M3
Scoped M1A 'loaded' with Karsten cheek rest.
If you really want a scoped M14, you can always go with the JAE-100, which features a nice cheek rest and much better bedding than the GI stock. All for a mere $700+
I like a simpler, forward mounted optic, so have the Ultimak rail on my every day M1A.
Finally, if you want the ultimate trigger, you can install a Rader. It will allow you to adjust your M1A to a safe 1.5 pounds if you like them that light. I have mine set for 2.5, and nothing else save the AR-10 with aftermarket trigger comes close.
woodybrighton2
member
- Joined
- Sep 30, 2009
- Messages
- 52
that shorty FAL is just plain silly in fully automatic would have a very limited role
as a range toy thats just plain daft.
played with a cut down g3 used as a car gun once fun but
as a range toy thats just plain daft.
played with a cut down g3 used as a car gun once fun but
308sc
Member
in the $600 range I would say a Saiga 308, or a Romanian PSL (has Iron Sights) that can still be used when scope is on.
if money is not a concern, I would say Springfield M1A
if money is not a concern, I would say Springfield M1A
gyvel
Member
Fn fal
GunTech, excellent post.
Additional options...
The TROY M14 MCS stock transforms the M14 into an AR style flat top with B.U.I.S.
The TROY stock will not accept a Brookfield mount, but it will accept just about anything that you can put on on an AR.
The US military uses two different SAGE EBR stocks, one has a fully adjustable butt stock and the other has an AR style receiver extension tube.
The SAGE system utilizes three different mounting systems to mount variable magnification optics:
The LaRue LT-608 and SAGE M14DCSB attach to the top rail ahead of the receiver.
A modified top rail is also available and it will accept a traditional Brookfield mount.
Both the TROY and SAGE use an interference tension system to bed the action and both offer several cheek riser options.
LaRue LT-608
SAGE M14DCSB
Additional options...
The TROY M14 MCS stock transforms the M14 into an AR style flat top with B.U.I.S.
The TROY stock will not accept a Brookfield mount, but it will accept just about anything that you can put on on an AR.
The US military uses two different SAGE EBR stocks, one has a fully adjustable butt stock and the other has an AR style receiver extension tube.
The SAGE system utilizes three different mounting systems to mount variable magnification optics:
The LaRue LT-608 and SAGE M14DCSB attach to the top rail ahead of the receiver.
A modified top rail is also available and it will accept a traditional Brookfield mount.
Both the TROY and SAGE use an interference tension system to bed the action and both offer several cheek riser options.
LaRue LT-608
SAGE M14DCSB
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chuckusaret
member
I have carried a M1, M14, M16, 500 12 ga,and others in combat and weight was never a factor.
I would get the M1 or the M1A.
Not so.
http://www.dsarms.com/SA58-FAL-Extreme-Duty-Scope-Mount---620A/productinfo/620A/
From everyone I have talked to the DSA mount is rock solid. The only grip I have heard was the mounting screw are just a tad short, but that is an easy fix. Buy a tad longer screw. True it is not as solid as a one piece upper, but I have not heard of any just falling off or wandering for that matter.
I've carried up to 35 lbs of crew-served in my arms in addition to my ruck. And, Chuck, it sucked. I watched footage from theater on CNN yesterday, and I could tell from how he moved, that the guy with the 240B was sucking pretty badly. In other words, he was worn out, and moving painfully and slowly. Sniper bait.
I'll take an M4 over an M14 for clearing houses any day of the week, 366 days of the year. If you want a do-everything weapon, a .308 autoloader isn't the worst choice, just don't fool yourself into thinking you have the perfect combat tool.
The truth is, no rifle can do everything well. Consider your priorities carefully. Personally, if I want versatile, I'll take a good bolt-action .30-06 or similar. If I want a "combat" rifle, I'll take an AR-15.
John
I'll take an M4 over an M14 for clearing houses any day of the week, 366 days of the year. If you want a do-everything weapon, a .308 autoloader isn't the worst choice, just don't fool yourself into thinking you have the perfect combat tool.
The truth is, no rifle can do everything well. Consider your priorities carefully. Personally, if I want versatile, I'll take a good bolt-action .30-06 or similar. If I want a "combat" rifle, I'll take an AR-15.
John
And that is the beauty of it fellas. Since most of us in this debate are not constrained by what we were issued we are allowed to freely choose our own weapons platform. No one weapon is any better than the other from the stand point of personal preference. Opinions are just that. And when it comes to picking the best weapon for me it is just my opinion. Few of us see the range all that often, and even less of us have seen or will see combat. Pick what rifle you like and let the other guy pick his. After all as General Yeager said "It's the man, not the machine."
But my vote is still for the FAL
But my vote is still for the FAL
So, since you feel the need to address it repeatedly, please tell everyone here exactly what your experience of combat is? If you have no experience of combat, and no training, what gives you any kind of authoritative voice here? Nothing. Playing range games at 100 meters doesn't qualify. As Jeff has said elsewhere, unless you have been trained as infantryman or scout, or seen ground combat, you don't have an authoritative voice- you're just an over-opinionated guy on the internet.
Others since have rightly said that most folks in this thread aren't really looking for a combat arm, and that's fine. That's part of the reason I suggest a good sturdy bolt-action for general use: it's good for medium to long-distance use, is sturdy and handy, and is perfect for hunting (which is the real use most shooters here may use it for).
John
John, it is my understanding that the members of THR are free to express their thoughts and
opinions regarding their individual choices and recommendations regardless of military service.
I believe your comments, assumptions and opinions are out of line.
opinions regarding their individual choices and recommendations regardless of military service.
I believe your comments, assumptions and opinions are out of line.
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You know, I have no problem with being called by my name: it's mine, and I'm proud of it. Feel free to use it.
Who are you, though? Why is it that one of us uses their name, and freely makes their experiences public if requested- while the other mostly just relies on innuendo and pictures? I, likewise, "believe your comments, assumptions and opinions are out of line."
Only I make my experiences and name public.
John
Who are you, though?
Why is it that one of us uses their name, and freely makes their experiences public if requested- while the other mostly just relies on innuendo and pictures? I, likewise, "believe your comments, assumptions and opinions are out of line."Only I make my experiences and name public.
John
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