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Senator Durbin, I respectfully submit,

Discussion in 'Legal' started by Onmilo, Jun 22, 2005.

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  1. Onmilo

    Onmilo Member

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    Your apology is not enough.

    The apathy of the voters of Illinois to elect someone of your caliber to be our representative in Washington D.C. is in itself reprehensible and shameful.

    The fact that you made a statement condemning our volunteer Servicemen with no basis in the fact of your accusation is in and of itself an act of Treason Sir.
    The fact that one week after making this statement you had the audacity to go before a Congressional Board composed of your peers and argue that Military bases in Illinois should not be closed while demanding the outright closure of the Guantanimo Bay Security Facility, which, in your statement, you made it sound as if you wished to close the whole base, shows just how two faced you can be Sir.

    The fact that as a postscript to your apology, a fellow Illinois elected Senator, a Junior Senator, made a condescending follow up is again sickening.
    If that is the best you can come up with, Sir, then it is time for you, and all those elected officials who think and feel as you do, to step down.

    We are in a war, Sir.
    The people whom we are fighting against wish to see everything this Country represents crushed, destroyed and smeared from the records of History.
    Those people, our enemy, KILL our citizens, KILL our soldiers, and KILL our allies.
    Mr. Durbin, I have never seen a video that has originated from Guantanimo Bay showing American Service Personnel sawing the head off any captive being held there.
    Neither have you and you won't.
    Not because clandestine operations will cover the whole thing up.
    Because it just won't happen, Sir.
    I cannot say the same for our enemies.

    As a matter of fact, our Government, the one we the People of Illinois elected you to act with as our representatve,
    Our Government has seen fit to admit to the world that we, as a people, are not perfect and acts that are reprehensible to other citizens of this planet can and will be performed by citizens of our great Country.
    Acts that, most assuredly, are not condoned by the general citizenry.

    That is the Beauty and the Curse of a free people, Sir.
    A Beauty and Curse that you seem to have forgotten.

    We are not forced to tow the line in lockstep with what our Elected Officals may wish us to do, be it good or evil, right or wrong.
    We, as a People, have the freedom to make that choice.

    We, those same People, have a Government that is big enough to stand up and admit to the world that wrongs have been commited.
    Wrongs that are not sanctioned by our government nor by the will of the People as a whole.
    Wrongs may be commited in the future, but make no mistake, those wrongs will not be willingly allowed by our Government, nor our People, to approach the level of wrongs perpetrated by our current enemy.
    This I firmly believe, Sir.

    For you to make a statement comparing our actions at the Guantanimo Bay Detention Center to the policies and actions of former repressive Governments and despots shows just how far gone is your grasp of reality Sir.

    The only apology I can accept from you, Sir, is your immediate resignation from Elected Office.
     
  2. RealGun

    RealGun Member

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    I wouldn't insult the military, but I don't think much of PC policing or taking offense where there is none likely intended. I would say that Durbin should be thoughtful, even discreet, but not lose the ability to speak frankly. Senate decorum and pure BS are hard to distinguish. If the Dems are inquiring about Gitmo, I don't think the response should in effect be "bite me".
     
  3. Bobarino

    Bobarino member

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    that wasn't an apology. an apology is "i am sorry for my actions". Durbin's "apology" was, "i'm sorry you were offended". that was a politics apology. not a heartfelt one. he's not one iota sorry.

    Bobby
     
  4. MechAg94

    MechAg94 Member

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    The proper response should be: Vote for the other guy!
     
  5. Rebar

    Rebar member

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    http://www.americanthinker.com/articles.php?article_id=4588

    Couldn't say it better myself.
     
  6. ceetee

    ceetee Member

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    Except for the fact that the practices alluded to did indeed happen, and were witnessed by officials from Amnesty International, the International Red Cross and the FBI...

    If you missed it, or if you don't feel like actually reading the text of the speech, the practices alluded to involved using cuffs and shackles to restrain a naked person in the fetal position for days, until he had urinated and defecated on himself. While he's lying there, turn the temperature down so he spends the days shivering uncontrollably, Give him no food or water. (I guess that's to put a stop to the urinating and defecating, what?) Turn the heat up until the temperatures are enough to make a grown man pull his own hair out of his head in agony. Earsplittingly loud noise. For days.

    Those actually are torture techniques. Durbin never called our soldiers Nazis, or Commies, or whatever the Republicans are alleging these days. He said, "This was the action of Americans in the treatment of their prisoners."

    The orders to carry out these actions came from Rumsfeld. They may have originated with Bush or Cheney, but they came from Rumsfeld. This lets you know how this administration intends to deal with anybody they consider an enemy. This is why they just inked a hundred-million-dollar contract with a Halliburton subsidiary to build a new 500-bed prison facility at Gitmo, instead of just using 500 of the thousands of already existing beds in Federal prisons stateside. Because the laws are different there, and Americans aren't Americans in the eyes of the law.

    Why is this a bad thing? Because this is not what "America" means, to me, and to millions of other Americans. We have equal protection under the law. We can't be tortured on a whim, and we can't be held without due process. It's not the American way. It's wrong, and it shows you just how Un-American this President and his Cabinet members really are.


    Oh, and if anybody doubts the ability of loud rap music to make you lose your mind, well, you don't have teenagers, that's all I can say.
     
  7. Standing Wolf

    Standing Wolf Member in memoriam

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    Representatives of the Democratic (sic) party don't apologize or resign: they get more important committee assignments and lots of free national leftist extremist so-called "news" coverage.
     
  8. chaim

    chaim Member

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    Except, they were not witnessed by these groups. Members of these groups reported these kinds of abuses based on interviews with inmates.

    I don't think anyone is defending some of the abuses that have occurred. I think people are offended at Durban saying they rise to the standards of being equal to offenses committed by Pol Pot, Stalin's Gulags, and the Nazi concentration camps. As an American and former American soldier I find the comments highly offensive as even the worst abuses don't rise to that level. Also, Durban was hinting at something I've heard more and more from the left- once again, just like the 1960s, they are starting to paint all US soldiers with the "human rights abuse" brush. What's more, as a Jew I am highly offended at his minimization of the crimes of the Nazis by claiming what we are doing in Gitmo by using common interrogation techniques that are unpleasant, accomponied by some (relatively rare) abuses, is similar to gassing, starving, and working 6 million Jews and 3 million Gypsies, gays, and political prisoners to death.

    An apology is the least we should expect. I'd prefer a resignation.
     
  9. Dr.Who

    Dr.Who Member

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    Dick Durbin is just living up to his first name... :fire:

    I don't like him and never will. My son got a letter congratulating him on being an Eagle Scout. It got torn up... I can not say any more without causing a moderator problem.....

    If you live in Illinois around Chicago, you will understand...
     
  10. ceetee

    ceetee Member

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    Thnese act were indeed witnessed by the FBI:"On a couple of occasions, I entered interview rooms to find a detainee chained hand and foot in a fetal position to the floor, with no chair, food or water," the FBI agent wrote on Aug. 2, 2004. "Most times they had urinated or defecated on themselves, and had been left there for 18 to 24 hours or more."

    In one case, the agent continued, "the detainee was almost unconscious on the floor, with a pile of hair next to him. He had apparently been literally pulling his own hair out throughout the night."

    Story


    But as Americans, holding people prisoner for violating American law, we just don't do things like that.

    "The documents also make it clear that some personnel at Guantanamo Bay believed they were relying on authority from senior officials in Washington to conduct aggressive interrogations. One FBI agent wrote a memo referring to a presidential order that approved interrogation methods "beyond the bounds of standard FBI practice," although White House and FBI officials said yesterday that such an order does not exist. Instead, FBI and Pentagon officials said, the order in question was signed by Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld in December 2002 and then revised four months later after complaints from military lawyers that he had authorized methods that violated international and domestic law. "

    And as a Jew, you should feel nothing but contempt for those who say, "We were just following orders..."
     
  11. Onmilo

    Onmilo Member

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    RealGun this is what speaking frankly is all about.
    I am about as far away from Political Correctness as one can get and I believe that is what you are implying with the PC abbreviation.

    The words you see typed in my beginning thread are verbatum of the letter I sent to Mr Durbins office.

    "Bite me" was not included because the letter wasn't about me.
    The letter was written to express dissatisfaction with the actions of an elected official and to suggest what one who is considered to be an honorable elected official should do when that persons actions or words,displayed or spoken without proof of conviction directly insult the good citizens and volunteer service members of this country.

    ceetee, again I ask where the head removing video from Gitmo may be?
    One should wish our fellow citizens held hostage in Iraq could be so fortunate to simply pull their hair out in frustration of their situation.
    18 to 24 chained to a chair, feces and urine to stick to their lair.
    How is this worse than the treatment citizens of Cambodia and Laos faced prior to their death by violence in government sanctioned internment camps?
    Does this make it right, probably not but then again i haven't been there.
    I don't know the games the prisoners play and neither do you.
    The games the soldiers play may be retalitory and flushing a book is less heinous than killing a person in cold blood in my book of opinion.
    Maybe we should put all the poor souls in Gitmo in a public housing unit in Las Vegas and give them government subsidized employment in the gaming industry.
    Would that make all you concerned citizens more comfortable?

    The folks that are interred in Cuba are there for a reason.
    They are similar to the folks who find themselves on death row.
    They didn't get there being a stand up kind of guy.

    If you elect to side with the view of Mr. Durbin so be it.
    This is a free country.
    But walk a mile in a soldiers shoes before you make that choice.
     
  12. scottgun

    scottgun Member

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    Bringing up Hitler or Nazis in an argument that has no relation to the Germans or WWII should be an immediate disqualification. Its a tired analogy that doesn't really fit.

    Liberals are still frothing at the mouth over the guy who stole the presidency, twice and lied. Guess what - he didn't do either. :neener:
     
  13. Moondoggie

    Moondoggie Member

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    I think it must be a humbling experience for Senator Durbin, supposedly the second most powerful democrat in the Senate, to be brought to heel by the Mayor of Chicago. News reports attribute the impetus of Durbin's apology to Mayor Daley.

    That speaks volumes about the state of politics in Il-annoy.

    (Actually, on third thought, I guess you have to have a conscience to have a humbling experience..so maybe he's just mildly embarassed.)
     
  14. ceetee

    ceetee Member

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    Onmilo, I understand your argument. I completely understand your passion. You have the right to have your opinion, and say your say, and I wouldn't have it any other way. Because that's how it is in America.

    These guys probably aren't choir boys. But in three years, none of them have been charged with any kind of crime, and all the torture hasn't produced one whit of usable intelligence. Not one iota.

    In America, we don't torture people. We don't saw their heads off. And we don't imprison people forever, without access to the outside world, or attorneys. If these guys deserve to be in prison, we could do it a lot cheaper, and safer in American prisons on American soil. More legal that way, too. If they don't deserve to be in an American prison, then they probably don't deserve to be in prison at all...
     
  15. scottgun

    scottgun Member

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    Bring known terrorists onto American soil??, are you serious? Putting terrorists into America prisons is the worst idea I have ever heard. You think they're being abused now, put them in the general prison population, see how long they last.

    They are prisoners of war. .
     
  16. RevDisk

    RevDisk Member

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    Erm, the politically correct term is "enemy combatants" or whatever. POW's are accorded specific rights under the Geneva Convention, Hague, et al. All soldiers are trained on laws of warfare. For whatever reason, the Bush administration does not want said prisoners to be considered POW. Please use the correct terms, Citizen, or else you might need to spend some time with the Thought Police being re-educated. ;)


    Onmilo, did Senator Durbin meantion only Gitmo, or the Iraqi prison abuse also? I'm not sure about any official reports on Gitmo, but Major General Antonio M. Taguba filed a report on the Abu Ghraib Prison abuses. Are you going to accuse him of treason also? He also made statements "condemning our volunteer Servicemen".
     
  17. ceetee

    ceetee Member

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    Why haven't these "known terrorists" been charged, found guilty, and shot? As far as that goes, why hasn't any case been made at all against them?
     
  18. scottgun

    scottgun Member

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    Because that isn't what you do with prisoners of war, err I mean terrorists, err wait .. enemy combatants :scrutiny:

    Call them what you will, until their power base is dismantled they aren't going anywhere.
     
  19. RevDisk

    RevDisk Member

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    Actually, in many cases it is fully legal to execute prisoners. Spies, for instance. Remember that old photo of an Vietcong captain in civilian clothing being executed by the police chief of Saigon? Fully legal under the Geneva Convention.

    The biggest thing is that prisoners are accorded rights. These rights do not mean prisoners cannot be punished for their actions, nor do these rights prohibit their execution if they are convicted by trial. Whatever made you think that POW's cannot be punished for their crimes under legal circumstances?
     
  20. scottgun

    scottgun Member

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    These enemy combatants will never be "charged, found guilty, and shot" Although prisoners have been executed in the past, I really don't think the prisoners at Guantanimo Bay Detention Center will ever be "found guilty and shot".

    But you are correct that they certainly can be punished. So what's all the complaining about?
     
  21. Waffen

    Waffen Member

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    If they did not fight in a "Saddam Era" Iraqi unit why should they be considered POW's? If they were not sanctioned by any army, just a band of rebels, why do they deserve the same rights as an actual soldier?

    Point being is, a lot of these guys did not wear a uniform, were not funded by the govt.

    If what I have said is the case, I would hope they are tried, and if found guilty of crimes against the US, or murder of a US soldier, they would be shot. End of story.

    2 armies fighting eachother is one thing, but a band of rebels taking pot shots and then attempting to blend in with civillians is a whole other thing in my book.
     
  22. scottgun

    scottgun Member

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    They are not POWs as pointed out by RevDisk, they're enemy combatants.

    You're right many of them didn't wear uniforms, but rather what appears to be sheets and towels. I would like to see them punished too, if found guilty, but the days of the firing squads are long gone.

    Could you imagine what rhetoric Durbin would spew if the enemy combatants were ever shot, firing squad style?
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2005
  23. Waffen

    Waffen Member

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    He could spew "I saved the tax payers of this country over $1000 a combatent, in funds that would have been spent processing all this legal mumbo-jumbo. I basically cut out the middle man, and spent 5 cents on 1 bullet ranther that what would have taken President Bush $1000 to do"

    Thats what I would spew if I had a voice.


    Somtimes I think libs want to give more rights to the enemy than they do to the soldiers themselves.
     
  24. Blue Jays

    Blue Jays Member

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    Hi All-

    Senator Dick Turban is an absolute disgrace to this country and a seditious traitor. To viciously lie about the brave men and women who stand atop the wall defending our freedoms is inexcusable. He should resign in shame.

    ~ Blue Jays ~
     
  25. Remington788

    Remington788 Member

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    So you work for the CIA.
     
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