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Seriously: Is it time to start USING the Second Amendment?

Discussion in 'Legal' started by Drjones, Sep 17, 2004.

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  1. Drjones

    Drjones member

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    ***PLEASE READ THIS ENTIRE POST BEFORE YOU RESPOND. DO NOT RESPOND TO THE QUESTION POSED IN THE TITLE OF THIS THREAD.

    YES, IT WILL BE A BIT LENGTHY, BUT I WANT TO KNOW WHAT YOU THINK ABOUT THIS EXACT SITUATION. THANK YOU.***




    My friends; someone posted a passage, quoted below, that truly struck a chord with me.

    Please read it, and then continue below.





    My friends, I do not think I need to explain to any of you here the utter depravity of the anti-gunners and the depths to which they will stoop.

    They label us as terrorists, murderers, nuts, extremists, and all other sorts of foul, disgusting epithets. They are not exaggerating when they say this; they truly mean it and want people to believe it.

    All that gun owners want is to be left alone, to do what we want, to enjoy our freedom, just like any other law-abiding American citizen.

    The facts show that gun owners are in general better educated, hold higher-paying and more prestigious jobs than non-gun owners, are more law-abiding (almost to a fault) and less tolerant of government abuse of dissenters, etc. than non-gun owners.


    In short, gun owners are generally better people and better citizens than non-gun owners.


    Yet they will not stop persecuting us.

    They lie, cheat, and decieve to achieve their ends.

    I am growing more and more afraid that "the system" (voting and other peaceful means) has failed us and will only get worse as time goes on.

    Here is a perfect example of how the system is being undermined WITHOUT CONSEQUENCE from www.fiftycal.org:




    That's a REAL kick in the face, and a huge step over that proverbial line; our elected representatives lie, cheat, and use other unethical and illegal means to push their agenda.

    It is absolutely reprehensible, inexcusable, and those who participated in this "ghost voting," republican OR democrat, should be tried and executed for treason.

    AREN'T SITUATIONS LIKE THIS EXACTLY WHY THE FOUNDING FATHERS WROTE THE SECOND AMENDMENT TO THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA?????

    WHY ARE THERE NO CONSEQUENCES FOR ACTING IN A TREASONOUS MANNER LIKE THE POLITICIANS DESCRIBED ABOVE???????




    Further, in CA, we successfully recalled our communist governor, making a pretty large statement that we are sick and frickin' tired of business (lying, cheating, stealing, etc) as usual, and, IMO, taking a large step in the right direction.

    Even THAT has failed us.


    I ask you to seriously think about the facts I have presented thus far.


    How long are we going to wait until we practice some "civil disobedience" of our own??

    Or have I gone nuts?


    Again, the above quoted passage from a THR member really, truly hit home;
    it seems that, for many people, the only option left is the cartridge box or the moving box.

    Like the War on Terror, I do not think that this is a war that will be won if we continue to play nice.

    The only way we've ever played is "nice" and look where its gotten us.

    We are all too happy to piss and moan on the internet, gripe about how the NRA isn't doing anything (or even harming us), write a few emails or letters, and call it a day.

    We are going to lose in the long run if we keep playing like that.

    Your serious thoughts are requested.....
     
  2. deej

    deej Member

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    "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards."

    -- Claire Wolfe, 101 Things to Do 'Till the Revolution
     
  3. SB88LX

    SB88LX Member

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    My opinion: We need to unite/form a coalition between all gun rights groups, make a grand all-encompassing plan towards defense and OFFENSE (bills that repeal worthless laws), and most importantly get out and be ACTIVE. Everytime the antis throw a news conference to announce their 'outrage' of the current situation and throw all sorts of false/deceiving information out, we need to turn around, pull whatever media outlets we can, show the facts and discuss how wrong the anti's positions are. I myself am guilty of inactivity (well I have donated to the GOA. life member in seperate payments, and plan to donate to the NRA), I dont' know of any local groups who get out and combat ignorance, probably my own fault for not looking hard enough. Turning to the magazine as you say would not have widespread support (Not yet I wouldn't think), and would fuel the antis because we'd be giving examples of "gun nuts gone crazy." That of all things would be most damaging, showing the public at large, who don't understand the right for the most part, members going out and shooting to protect their rights. I seriously get headaches whenever I hear the garbage spewed by the anti's, and there's more than enough to go around in maryland, believe me.
     
  4. spartacus2002

    spartacus2002 Member

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    The most illuminating thing about this thread won't be the responses, but the lack of responses out of fear of what alphabet agencies would say or do....
     
  5. R.H. Lee

    R.H. Lee Member

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    I don't think that some law prohibiting or restricting this that or the other thing is sufficient cause to start shooting. King George III had made all kinds of decrees and assessed all kinds of tariffs, but it wasn't until he hired 20,000 Hessians to invade us and the British attempted to disarm us that we actively resisted.

    There is (in my mind, anyway) a difference between some ordinance on the books and an aggressive attempt to enforce it. Compliance is now and will always be a huge problem for lawmakers and enforcers. The more restrictive the law, the lower the rate of compliance. Just because the .50 will be "outlawed" in California after January doesn't mean there won't be any .50's in California. Now you may not be able to take it to the range, but is that worth armed resistance? Not to me. Now if/when the JBT's start a door to door search for the purpose of confiscation of firearms, all bets are off.
     
  6. SB88LX

    SB88LX Member

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    If they would come after me or anyone else for expressed outrage, well I would think it was about my time anyway, liberty or death.
     
  7. Drjones

    Drjones member

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    I had that exact thought in mind as I was writing my initial post.






    Well, I don't think we'd ever see an actual door-to-door search for firearms in America (logistically impossible), but what about tracking down owners of "assault weapons" (now including the .50 BMG) and going to confiscate those arms??
     
  8. R.H. Lee

    R.H. Lee Member

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    Good question and I don't know the answer. When SB whatever (Roberti-Roos) passed here in California banning a slew of 'assault weapons', I don't remember the state tracking anybody down for confiscation. There was a lot of blather on the radio and tv by the Attorney General -"This and that are illegal, turn it in to us by such and such a date or you'll be a felon......etc., et yada. But I don't know that they tried to track people down and search houses. Enforcement is full of problems for them. Any idea how they plan to enforce the .50 ban?
     
  9. buy guns

    buy guns Member

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    so what are we going to do? wait until the last minute when its already too late?


    jeez, someone give me a scoped rifle, teach me to shoot it, and i'll go to cali myself.
     
  10. swifter

    swifter Member

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    If a few patriots start to organize a movement, it will be "conspiracy".:uhoh:

    If less than a regiment takes action, it will be stomped flatASAP, by both state and feds, then charged with conspiracy...:rolleyes:

    The paradigm of government is continual expansion of power.

    Politicians only stop doing whatever they want when confronted with things that get their attention: Money, and Fear.

    Even if we had a good collection, it'd only be enough to buy one or two pols, with a low probability that they'd stay bought...:fire:

    Does narrow the options down, doesn't it?

    I've been waiting for the revolution to start for a long time, now I don't believe it will.

    But,:D I do think I've figured out why some folks turn to terrorism: All other options were invalid. Sure hope it doesn't come to that for us...:banghead:
     
  11. Drjones

    Drjones member

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    I disagree with your statement.

    Terrorism is the deliberate targeting of an uninvolved, innocent third party to force the acquiescense of another party.

    I hardly think that fighting back against true tyrants fits that definition.

    As far as "hoping it doesn't come to that for us, " well, I don't think you read my initial post.

    CA legislators have been "ghost-voting," or voting FOR ABSENT LEGISLATORS.

    We call, write, fax, email, to NO avail.

    We RECALL our governor, only to end up with more of the same. (DON'T BLAME DRJONES, I VOTED FOR MCCLINTOCK!)

    I fail to see what other options we have......
     
  12. Cosmoline

    Cosmoline Member

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    Those who dream of fighitng "blue helmets" will be pretty disappointed if the real revolution ever does come. They'll be fighting their neighbors and friends.

    The best response is to continue to migrate to "red" states where the RKBA is respected. The only hope for armed resistance is if it is coupled with outright rebellion at the state level. If all you do is take up arms against the government, with no declaration, no uniforms and no rules you really are a terrorist.

    The founding fathers didn't just grab a rifle and start shooting Brits. The announced their intention to revolt in the open, signed their names to it and sent it to King George. They never attempted to hide. When the time came for open combat, proper military forces were set up under the authority of a representative legislative body. THAT is a revolution. Simply shooting an LEO in the gut because he comes to enforce a law you don't like is first degree murder.
     
  13. Das Pferd

    Das Pferd Member

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    For a "revolution" to succeed it needs the support of the people. How many people will support your revolution when they find out that you are revolting to keep your Barret .50 BMG, AK-47, and AR?

    The second amendment contains only one right. Other rights in the consitution are trampled on daily much more then the second amendment, yet I dont see you guys up in arms about that.

    In over 200 years of existence, we have had worse times when it comes to peoples rights. However our country made it through those times as it will now.

    You revolt when there is no other choice, when you have exhuasted every means posssible to change the situation, when there is no hope, when your freedom and god given rights have been taken away, when you have the support of those who were once opposed to you.

    There might be a time when gun control advocates suddenly say "what did we do, this government we created and the madman in power needs to be stopped." Then I will revolt.

    Read the Decleration of Independance again, read what it really says. We are a long long long long long long long long way from even being close to the reasons for revolting.

    He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.
    He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.
    He has refused to pass other Laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of Representation in the Legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only.
    He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their public Records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures.
    He has dissolved Representative Houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly firmness his invasions on the rights of the people.
    He has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to cause others to be elected; whereby the Legislative powers, incapable of Annihilation, have returned to the People at large for their exercise; the State remaining in the mean time exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without, and convulsions within.
    He has endeavoured to prevent the population of these States; for that purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migrations hither, and raising the conditions of new Appropriations of Lands.
    He has obstructed the Administration of Justice, by refusing his Assent to Laws for establishing Judiciary powers.
    He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone, for the tenure of their offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries.
    He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harrass our people, and eat out their substance.
    He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the Consent of our legislatures.
    He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil power.
    He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation:
    For Quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:
    For protecting them, by a mock Trial, from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:
    For cutting off our Trade with all parts of the world:
    For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:
    For depriving us in many cases, of the benefits of Trial by Jury:
    For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences
    For abolishing the free System of English Laws in a neighbouring Province, establishing therein an Arbitrary government, and enlarging its Boundaries so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the same absolute rule into these Colonies:
    For taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws, and altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments:
    For suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever.
    He has abdicated Government here, by declaring us out of his Protection and waging War against us.
    He has plundered our seas, ravaged our Coasts, burnt our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people.
    He is at this time transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty & perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized nation.
    He has constrained our fellow Citizens taken Captive on the high Seas to bear Arms against their Country, to become the executioners of their friends and Brethren, or to fall themselves by their Hands.
    He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages, whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions.


    Whats you reason for revolting?

    They are taking away my gun.
     
  14. Das Pferd

    Das Pferd Member

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    Please tell me where tyranny is alive and well in the US?
     
  15. Das Pferd

    Das Pferd Member

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    What gets me is we are the greatest nation on this planet. We live longer, we make more money, our children have better health benefits, we have more freedom then alomst any other country on this planet.

    Yet you guys are talking about revolting?

    I mean seriously, have you really stepped back and looked at what you are talking about?

    You want to revolt against the government of the most free nation in the world for not having enough freedom?

    We need to stop looking at every little negative thing about our country and start reveling in its majesty and accomplishments. In what we have and the rest of the world does not.
     
  16. Ieyasu

    Ieyasu Member

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    Well, well. Somebody finally hit on a possible problem/solution. Myself and a friend had formed a local gun rights group many years ago. That made it quite easy to get candidate endorsements and where appropriate, other statements, into the newspaper. Paper's usually have no problem quoting spokesperson's representing groups (they seldom ask for size).

    That is what it would take to even have a chance at saving Mexifornia. Local groups would have to sprout-up all over California, and ideally would be somewhat coordinated when state or county issues are involved. I could go on and on with this topic, but it's a waste of time.

    There just aren't enough people willing to make the kind of sacrifices necessary to make something like this work on a statewide basis, especially a state as large as Mexifornia.

    That is why this cartridge box talk is such total balderdash. In fact the folks who sprout that kind of BS only show that they are part of the problem because they don't understand the whole issue. If you can't even get a small number of people to organize into a gun rights group, what good is armed resistance going to do? LMAO.

    I believe Kal is hopeless, but you folks in other states that still have a modicum of freedom ought to start building your organizations now.

    Donating to the NRA, etc., writing letters etc. is a great first step in gun rights activism, but it's a baby's first step and sadly the majority of gunowners will never remove their thumb's from their mouth's as their gun rights are removed by their parents.

    (My shot at cartridge box talk was not aimed at the thread starter!)
     
  17. Drjones

    Drjones member

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    Das Pferd, you bring up very good points.

    I'd just like to point out that "gun control advocates" by no means exist ONLY in the government.

    With less pressure on politicians from anti-gun groups, there would probably be a reduction in the amount of new anti-gun laws produced by politicians.
     
  18. drclark

    drclark Member

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    In that same thread I posted the following

    When is the last time that gun-owners in this state held a 2nd-amendment rally? When have we had a mass-gathering protest in the state capitol? What percentage of gunowners overall do you think actually mailed/phoned the gov. urging him to veto AB50/SB1152/SB1140?
    Pretty much says it all. Gunowners have way too much to lose, and thus are much more resistant to actively protesting in a manner in which they end up in some government agency's files. Where were all the .50 shooters when this bill hit the gov's desk? Were they camped out in front of the governor's mansion or were they at home sending e-mails. Did anyone take time off work, drive up to Sacramento and protest?

    I think there is plenty we can do within the system as it is. We just have to unite, organize and get vocal! Just look at all the gains the gay rights movement has made in the last 30 years when they are at best <5% of the total population?? The key is that they are out in public at their gay pride rallys & parades DEMANDING their rights. This gets news coverage which then reaches and energizes the closet-gays to come out "join the fun" or at the very least pay attention to whats going on in Sacramento.

    In general the majority of the population is totally ignorant to what is going on in Sacramento on a day to day basis. Only when some hot button issue comes up (like gay marriage or drivers license for illegals) does the press cover it and the public get wind. Often times when it is too late.

    I thought that this would be a particularly unique way to protest AB50 as well as a chance to educate the general public what these rifles are all about:
    How many .50 rifles could we get at a mass shoot at a Sacrameto area range? Can you see the symbolism if we could get 100 or more .50 BMG's on a firing line shooting in sync? It could be a very powerful reminder of the 2nd amendment's purpose without actually resorting to using it...

    I'm not saying that armed rebellion isn't an option.... but it should be saved for when ALL other forms of protest and dissent have been exhausted.

    drc
     
  19. Michigander

    Michigander Member

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    Answer to the question in the title of this thread: No.

    If Amendment II simply said, "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to
    the security of a free State, the people retain the right to keep and bear Arms," then some infringements (regulations, registration, etc.) could arguably be Constitutional.

    But Amendment II goes further than just enumerating a right retained by the people: it goes so far as to declare that this right "shall not be infringed."

    The ban on the .50 in CA is an outright ban. Certainly an infringement. But all the licensing, background checks, the NFA tax, permit to purchase, permit to carry, safety inspection, ad nauseum are all infringements too.

    When a ban comes, people hollar about our right being infringed and that it's time to "use" the Second Amendment.

    Well, once we succumbed to one infringement with no consequences to our elected officials, then another happened, then another, until we find ourselves in the situation we are today.

    Banning the .50 does not deny you the "right to keep and bear arms," but it does infringe on that right. But where have we been with all the other infringements? Why pick this one? Because it's a ban? You still have the "right to keep and bear arms," right? How many infringements does it take?

    I think they will widdle us down until we can only own rimfire, shotguns and blackpowder. After all, you will still have the "right to keep and bear arms," just not the specific arms you may want.
     
  20. JoeWang

    JoeWang Member

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    I feel sorry for you in CA.

    You've let your state sink into a liberal morass. You have not led others up the high road, nor sacrificed enough to allow others to pass that way. Take some responsibility for the condition of your home state and quit bitching about it.
     
  21. hillbilly

    hillbilly Member

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    Look to history, for your answers.


    In the American Revolution, the colonists did not get to open, armed confrontation until they literally had no other choice whatsoever.

    The march on Concord was a march to confiscate the colonists' cache of weapons and ammo.

    Remember, the shooting started on April 19, 1776.

    The "Declaration of Independence" wasn't signed until three months after the shooting actually started. Even after the shooting started, it took them another three months to actually declare the war that had already been going since April 19.

    That's how reluctant people are to go to war against their own governments, and wisely so.

    The Kali .50 ban is bad and awful. It is the next step in the advance of the antis.

    But, it does not yet make things so intolerable in Kali that those who still give a damn about freedom have no other choice than to start shooting.

    Those who care about freedom in the US still have other viable options than to start shooting. Until the day comes that there are no other options, the shooting won't start.

    My major points:

    1) Those who say the frog will be slowly boiled and that we will lose our guns little by little until "poof," one day they are just gone, are completely dead wrong.

    There are simply too many guns in private hands already in the US. You cannot slowly erode away 200 million guns in the US and really get anywhere.

    Do the math. Even by the most conservative estimates, there are 200 million guns in civilian hands in the US. That's an average of four million guns a state.

    Do you really think that the authorities in your state could actually round up four million guns easily and effectively? Even if they had a little federal help?

    And that's if nobody started illegally smuggling guns in, which they would, or started illegally making guns out in the garage, which they would.

    For the antis to actually achieve their goals in less than a 1000 years time, they will have to, some day, go for large scale confiscations.

    That's what happened in Britain, in Australia, and in Canada. In every single one of those countries, the antis made slow progress over years. But in every single one of those countries the antis eventually had to take bold action and institute wide-scale confiscations.

    The difference between Britain, Australia, Canada, and the US is that the US actually has a history of rising up against internal tyranny with arms.

    2) Look to history for your enemies. In Revolutions, you enemies will be, by definition of the word "revolution," your neighbors, your friends who disagree with you, even members of your own family.

    That's what happened in the American colonies in 1776.

    That's what happened in the Civil War in the 1860s.

    That's why revolutions are not to be entered into unless there are no other options whatsoever.

    A revolution would mean killing people you see every day, people you speak to, people you've had a beer with, people who are actually related to you.

    Read about the guerilla actions in Missouri during the Civil War. Talk about bloody, personal, nasty, and downright mean against people you know.

    Read the story of the short, savage, blood-soaked life of Bloody Bill Anderson for what revolutionary guerilla war looks like.

    Not a party I would want to attend unless I had abosutely no other choice.

    3) While Kali may be a lost cause, there is still a little room to fight within the system.

    Exhibit "A" in my case is the recent death of the awful, stupid, lousy Assault Weapons Ban.

    There are still plenty of "red" states where you can own damn near anything you want.

    In fact, the "red" states outnumber the "blue" states by about 2-1.

    The "blue" states have more total people, as most of the population in the US is urban (which is a major part of the problem here).

    But the actual number of states with lots of firearms freedoms is still significantly higher than those states which have lost most of their freedoms.

    hillbilly
     
  22. spartacus2002

    spartacus2002 Member

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    There are many who would disagree with you wholeheartedly, and they would have a plethora of facts to back them up.

    Folks in pre-revolutionary America would be aghast at the tax burden we suffer today.

    Standing armies: TSA, DEA, ATF, need I go on...

    Abuse of eminent domain.

    Civil Asset Forfeiture laws and the damage it has done to the 5th Amendment.

    The War on Drugs and the damage it has done to the 4th Amendment.

    The abundance of federal regulations choking innovation and business like crabgrass.

    I could go on....
     
  23. Mulliga

    Mulliga Member

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    Relax.

    If you can still post stuff like this on THR, I think we've got a ways to go yet. :confused:
     
  24. R.H. Lee

    R.H. Lee Member

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    Uh, yeah. What starts in California doesn't stay in California. Let's see how y'all handle it when it gets down to JawJa. :rolleyes:
     
  25. hillbilly

    hillbilly Member

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    Spartacus2002..................

    The fact that you can post what you have posted on this thread and you won't get arrested, and you won't get tortured, and you won't have your house confiscated by the government, and your family members won't get arrested and held and tortured is 100% positive proof that we aren't any where near time for a shooting revolution.

    If you read the history of the American Revolution, you will see that the Founding Fathers did not go to war because the British kept a standing army or even because of the taxes the British imposed.


    What pushed the colonists into war was the fact that colonials who spoke out against taxation got arrested. Their families got arrested. Their houses were burned. Colonists who protested or spoke out were crushed under the tyranny of the British Crown in numerous ways.

    That's what started the American Revolution. It was troops marching to Concord to take away the guns so the colonists could be more readily crushed than they already were.

    Remember the reading about "The Boston Massacre?" Those folks got killed for protesting in the street. And that was in 1770.....or six years before the Delcaration was signed.

    You seen any street protestors gunned down by federal troops lately?

    I haven't.

    hillbilly
     
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