Setting up for 454 casull

[trekker73]

Hi gents, can any users of this case or similar check my homework. I have a Lee carbide 3 die set and a 4th die, the Lee factory crimp die also coming. Starline brass. Vn N110 powder which is all I can get in Australia at the moment, but it runs only a bit behind H110 and lilgun in my 44mags for power. I heard with heavy loads 454 casull brass can only handle one firing and must be used at 45colt levels after that? Is this true or is it dependant on whether a heavy load is 55 or 65KPSi etc.

Gun is a Rossi 92 in 454. Will also be picking up a RSRH with 9" barrel shortly. I used to own one of these 20 years ago but sold it back then before doing much. Looking to run 300XTP for hunting with the lever action at this stage. Thanks for any other comments

 

[41 Mag]

Well sounds like you gearing up for some fun. My 454 journey started out with the Taurus Raging Bull about 20yrs or so ago. I've only run a handful of factory ammo though it mainly due to cost.

My handloads usually consist of Starline brass AA-9 or of late burning up some 1680 that I came into possession of. That said I have also tried H110/296, 2400, and probably another one or two I am forgetting about. My mainstay has been either 110/296 or AA-9 for the majority of all loads. For bullets, initially I had some 260gr mag HP's that did fine for most things, but the real performer has been the Lee 452-300RF which I have shot more of than anything. I tried the Cast Performance 260gr WFN, but for the cost of having them delivered, I was able to purchase the Lee 6 cavity mold and get going with those.

I have run most loads in the 1550'ish FPS range simply because that is where they are the most accurate from my now two revolvers. I have also added in a lever gun which shoots this same load into a nice 1-1.5" group at 50yds with open sights and stays as tight as around 2" at 100. I'm sure it is me that is the detractor as keeping the sights and bull in focus through my bifocals tends to be an issue at times. So figuring my loads usually run about a grain to a grain and a half under the Hodgdon max listed loads for a 300gr bullet, I'm not really pushing the envelope, but they are still fairly spunky. I have run some of the 260 mag JHP's up into the 1800fps range from my revolvers which while accurate, I wasn't overly fond of shooting.

All in all I have no issues with my brass and am still loading some of the same brass I started out with back at the get go, with the same loads as mentioned above. I use them in both of my revolvers as well as the rifle with no ill effect that I have noticed. I have lost a few over the years to a split at the neck but that is to be expected at some point using the rolled crimp each time.

IF I were to recommend something to start with I would give the N110 a try as it is very close to H110/296, or just go with AA-9. Either way I would run a 280 - 300gr bullet preferably of your own making if that's an option. The Lee mold uses a gas check but if you look over on the MP molds sight Mehic has a couple of plain base versions as does NOE that will work just fine. I use Carnuba Red from White Label Lubes for everything and have had no issues. Sizing can easily be done with a Lee push through at .452. POwder coating works well also but might be more stuff to get into, but it does work well.

Hope that helps,

 

[BBarn]

Speer states in their manual to use only Winchester brass for their full power loads. And subsequent loadings must be less than full power. They also used Starline and Federal brass for some loads, but only those of lower pressure.

Speer also states (paraphrased) that extraction difficulties occur when you reach the maximum pressure for a given bullet/case/powder charge/firearm combination.

Hornady, Lyman, and Sierra offer no similar information.

Hornady, Sierra, and Speer all caution reloaders to use appropriate bullets when assembling high pressure Casull loads. Bullets designed for the 45 Colt typically can't withstand the higher Casull pressures and will likely cause problems if loaded to those pressures.

Remember to use small RIFLE primers for the Casull.

All of my experience with the Casull has been with less than full power loads. I've used several powders to produce rather moderate 454 Casull loads. Power wise, most were in the Ruger-Only 45 Colt area, with some above that. All shot in a 6 1/2" Blackhawk. No problems with brass; Starline for most, Hornady for those above 45 Colt Ruger-Only.

 

[Varminterror]

I have not had issues reloading multiple times at "full power" from 454 Casull from Hornady, Starline, or Winchester virgin brass, or reclaimed brass from Underwood, Grizzly, Magtech, or BB (I HAVE had substantial crimp jump issues with Magtech factory ammo). It has been many years since I have shot anything but H110 or Lil'Gun in 454, and almost exclusively H110 over LG, but I stoke the coals hot for my 454 loads, otherwise, otherwise, I wouldn't shoot 454. These are Ruger revolvers as well, known to have "looser" chamber specifications than Freedom Arms revolvers.

Speer states in their manual to use only Winchester brass for their full power loads. And subsequent loadings must be less than full power. They also used Starline and Federal brass for some loads, but only those of lower pressure.

Speer also states (paraphrased) that extraction difficulties occur when you reach the maximum pressure for a given bullet/case/powder charge/firearm combination.

Speer 13 references they used Freedom Arms cases for testing in that volume, which they state to be thicker and more durable than those which they previously used, describing the consequence of reduced powder charges (smaller internal capacity due to thickness), but they do not mention in that print version any issues with "single use" of brass. They DO reference that the load data for that print version is limited in pressure, in deference to the fact none of their bullets are designed for 65kpsi.

 

[Ohen Cepel]

There are different versions of XTP's, I would go with the one meant for the 454 rather than the 45LC.

 

[PapaG]

My only observation is that a good roll crimp is needed. Don't know if fcd does a roll.

 

[bigpower491]

My only observation is that a good roll crimp is needed. Don't know if fcd does a roll.

The 45/454 FCD I have does a roll crimp
I, like @Varminterror , have never had a problem loading multiple full house loads in fired brass. At least the brands I've used.
You'll be fine with the N110, enough people use it to good effect, although my preference is Ramshot Enforcer, followed by W296/H110. Lil Gun tends to make things very hot to the touch quite quickly, it'll be fine in your rifle, don't recommend for handguns.
Definitely load up some XTP Mags for full house loads
I've spent lots of time in the NT, have lots of mates there. Used to go pigging with a mate had a beautiful Ruger No.1 in 45/70. One of the coolest places on the planet, my opinion.

 

[BBarn]

I have not had issues reloading multiple times at "full power" from 454 Casull from Hornady, Starline, or Winchester virgin brass, or reclaimed brass from Underwood, Grizzly, Magtech, or BB (I HAVE had substantial crimp jump issues with Magtech factory ammo). It has been many years since I have shot anything but H110 or Lil'Gun in 454, and almost exclusively H110 over LG, but I stoke the coals hot for my 454 loads, otherwise, otherwise, I wouldn't shoot 454. These are Ruger revolvers as well, known to have "looser" chamber specifications than Freedom Arms revolvers.



Speer 13 references they used Freedom Arms cases for testing in that volume, which they state to be thicker and more durable than those which they previously used, describing the consequence of reduced powder charges (smaller internal capacity due to thickness), but they do not mention in that print version any issues with "single use" of brass. They DO reference that the load data for that print version is limited in pressure, in deference to the fact none of their bullets are designed for 65kpsi.

See either of Speer's more recent Reloading manuals for support of my statement. No doubt the FA revolvers are both better fit and better suited to the 454, especially for loads above 55kpsi.

 

[Show Me]

My only observation is that a good roll crimp is needed. Don't know if fcd does a roll.

It will pinch the daylights out of it if you want.

 

[BBarn]

Too bad Lee only offers the Carbide Factory Crimp Die for the 454, which crimps the same way as any roll crimp die. One of their collet style factory crimp dies would be better for the 454.

 

[Varminterror]

See either of Speer's more recent Reloading manuals for support of my statement.

It’s quite possible the newer or older versions of Speer’s manual mention single loading or only recommending Winchester brass. It would be very odd to me, but it’s their right to publish whatever they like.

But this spring marks 20 years which I have been loading 454casull, and I mentioned above the brass brands I have loaded throughout that time, and the loadings I have put on them. “One and done” is not a requirement, else I would have blown up a lot of cases by now - in all of my Ruger’s with respectively looser chambers, and at what the books suggest should be 60-65kpsi loads.

 

[BBarn]

It’s quite possible the newer or older versions of Speer’s manual mention single loading or only recommending Winchester brass. It would be very odd to me, but it’s their right to publish whatever they like.

Not only is it possible, but it's true. You can see for yourself how "odd" it is if you look. Good detailed info on the Casull in both of those manuals, especially #14.

 

[Varminterror]

Not only is it possible, but it's true. You can see for yourself how "odd" it is if you look. Good detailed info on the Casull in both of those manuals, especially #14.

Do you think I should throw all of my 454 casull brass away, since it must no longer be safe, as it has been fired 5-12x?

 

[BBarn]

Nope. Do as you wish. I never said it wasn't safe. I was simply offering some statements that could have been linked to the OP's concern over reloading the Casull and the choice of brass.

You might find Speer's comments and testing interesting. If you do a little searching and studying, you may also find the vast majority of 454 Casull load data is at or below 55 kpsia (when the psi is given). CUP data is also typically below 55K as well, but there is no SAAMI CUP standard for the Casull.

 

[Rimfire McNutjob]

Too bad Lee only offers the Carbide Factory Crimp Die for the 454, which crimps the same way as any roll crimp die. One of their collet style factory crimp dies would be better for the 454.

I believe there is a collet version of the Lee FCD you can get for 45LC listed as SKU: 90302. I have one. It would seem odd to make it for 45LC and not the 454, but sure enough I can't find one.

I wonder if they'd make one up for you. I've had them make custom FCD's for me in the past. As the 454 is longer than 45LC, you know it's probably possible. The collet FCD seems to have a lower case length limit that they can't go under with their common setup.

There was this quote from another forum ... "You can make the 45 Colt Lee Collet-Style Crimp Die work with 454 Casull by placing a 0.114" thick combination of shim washers on the shell holder deck over the case." Seems awkward.

But Redding might also make one of their Profile Crimp dies for the 454 ... which might be an option.

 

[BBarn]

I could cut a 1 PC spacer on the lathe, but it would still be awkward loading and unloading it off each cartridge. But perhaps not that bad since I only load 454 in low volume on a single stage, and I always crimp in a separate step as well.

 

[CraigC]

Bear in mind that most data is going to be in the 50,000psi range, not the full 65,000psi, which is really unnecessary. Not to mention not recommended for something other than a Freedom Arms. I would wager Starline brass is measurably better than any Winchester cases and I'd load them until the primers started falling out.

 

[BBarn]

Speer did some testing of Starline and Winchester 454 brass. The results appear in Reloading Manual #14.

 

[buck460XVR]

I, like @Varminterror , have never had a problem loading multiple full house loads in fired brass. At least the brands I've used.

It has to do with the lever action and how the bolt locks up in the rear, allowing for the cases to stretch, and may lead to case separation. I recommend Starline brass as I have had zero problems with it in .460 and it holds up much better than the Hornady.

 

[trekker73]

Thanks for the replies fellas. Over at Ruger forums they recommended I get a Redding profile crimp die I think they called it. I cancelled the Lee factory crimp die I had on order and got thar profile crimp die on the basis of those comments. Hadnt even heard of it before, or know whether its really necessary, a bit of an impulse to change plans like that but I assume it will still do the job

 

[buck460XVR]

With revolver rounds using a bullet with a cannelure, any die that gives a roll crimp is sufficient. No need for anything fancy, just makes sure you give it a firm crimp. Neck tension is just as important, so take it easy on the flare.

 

[Varminterror]

If you do a little searching and studying, you may also find the vast majority of 454 Casull load data is at or below 55 kpsia

I can’t imagine how I have missed that, after shooting this cartridge for 2 decades…

But I’ve never been able to find the trigger on my load manuals…

 

[Varminterror]

With revolver rounds using a bullet with a cannelure, any die that gives a roll crimp is sufficient. No need for anything fancy, just makes sure you give it a firm crimp. Neck tension is just as important, so take it easy on the flare.

Bingo, x2.

 

[CraigC]

With revolver rounds using a bullet with a cannelure, any die that gives a roll crimp is sufficient. No need for anything fancy, just makes sure you give it a firm crimp. Neck tension is just as important, so take it easy on the flare.

Yep. I've never used anything but a standard roll crimp. Never saw the point of any special crimp dies.

I also, perish the thought, crimp during the seating operation!

 

[Anchorite]

Yep. I've never used anything but a standard roll crimp. Never saw the point of any special crimp dies.

I also, perish the thought, crimp during the seating operation!

They are more marketing hype / gimmick than anything else, I believe.