Discussion in 'Non-Firearm Weapons' started by Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow, Dec 28, 2009.
I meant POW prisoners, not jailed convicts.
Where, in the world, do you guys get this stuff? Honestly, I have no idea. The amount of sheer misinformation, in todays day and age.
The cells are still disrupted, they still release their contents, causing the healing process to begin.
How, praytell, would the military effectivly dull a sword without removing significant amounts of material from the edge? How would they accomplish this without ruining all of the swords?
How would a dull sword have prevented that guy from being impaled on his horse?
A little critical thinking folks, that's all it takes.
i emailed a good doctor/firearm enthueist friend of mine asking his professional medical opinioin on dull vs sharp bayonet and here is the reply
....Good question with more than maybe a standard answer. Logical or common sense would lead you to think that a sharp bayonet is better, but it is not. The bayonet is not a replacement for a knife and meant not to cut but to pierce. Bayonets are unsharpened for the purpose of greater tissue disruption and the inability to appropriately mend the wound. A clean cut will create easier removal and repair. An unsharpened bayonet causes more damage with penetration. Greater chance of infection, Breaking/fragmenting bones rather than cutting, etc. I can go on, but I think you understand the answer.
anyway maybe this will clear things up abit, run a bayonet into a carcase such as pig and you'll see it will stick through even if unsharpened (don't ask how i know).
for the OP that bought the 1907 bayonet and sharpened them, a good machete would do if not perform better. To each his own i suppose
Honestly, I can understand an MD or DO thinking like that.
He's correct about a clean cut being easier to stitch, but who gives a rat's being about "repairing" and "infection" with a bayonet wound?
Either it's a good stab, or it's not. You're more likely to get a good stab with a sharp bayonet that doesn't get hung up on tissues.
I sharpened my bayo, and a friends.
Cetme bayos. good stuff, near shaving sharp. and good for making holes in steel computer cases. Also some $10 czech bayo got a nice looking convex grind.
Ak bayos try to be sharp. have a thinner edge.
And I go for sharp any day for wounding. if you want hard to stitch, get a sawback or serrated edge.
Some guys here must have never cut themselves apparently.
Clean cut = Clean wound.......Nasty cut = Nasty wound. It's called Physics.
No, the word you're searching for is Physiology, not physics.
For a great deal of the 20th century that would have had you court martialed and shot by your own side. Still the serrated edges of today have more to do with overcoming body armour than anything else and they were used for cutting posts by combat engineers for the past 150 years. Still I not seen the change in treaty that made it legal for say the new bayones to have serrations, so perhaps someone knows.
i don't think the seratted blade bayonets were ever outlawed, most of those were used for sawing but God helps the WWI German soldier who was caught with one.
Cutting your finger while slicing baloney isn't the same as getting several inches of steel shoved into your gut.
BTW, did any food you ever cut seal itself right back up because your knife was too sharp?
No offense, but the good doctor doesn't know what in the heck he's talking about, I'm afraid. This is absurd, folks. Hell, if dull is so great, then why not just make bayos in the shape of bowling balls or phallises - that'd do even MORE damage I suppose. Good grief, man!
Yes, I've cut myself many times, and if it's a sharp knife, then (a) it's far more likely to happen accidentally, and (b) it's far worse when it does happen - the cut is deeper, longer and bleeds more.
I'm sorry, I'm not buying the intentionally-dull for combat bayo being a good idea for one second. I don't doubt that there were some incompetent generals and non-mil commanders along the way who actually believed this and ordered this, but I do know it makes a weapon much less effective to be dull. I much rather be bayoed 3 times with a dull one than once with a sharp one. Far better to go all the way through pushing major organs and arteries out of the way than slicing right through them - any day of the week, from any angle, under any circumstances.
well, all i can tell you know is that the bayonet is essentially a thrusting weapon and the point does not need to be razor sharp to be effective, however since you are entitled to your own opinoin
Hello all RON L here
This thread has kinda got off Track, Yes a Bayonete or many other thiungs will be Less in Value if someone tried to clean it up, Sharpen it or in some other way changed it in look and feel! Many Fools "Clean up" an older Knife or Bayonete with a Wire Brush or worse a Grinding wheel and burn the temper out of the Blade or mark it up with all sorts of GRIND MARKS? Many a Valuabe Knife, sword or Bayonete has be destroyed in value in this way, FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, TURN OFF THE GRINDERS and LOSE THE WIRE BRUSHES! LOL
OH and for those that Don't know, Yes a Bayonete was Left Dull on Purpose as that was more Damage and Left a worse wound that would not heal right or be closed easily! I don't care what the MD's say they were not in the trench!
Ask that question nicely at http://swordforum.com/ and the gentlemen there will give you the straight skinny.
You will find, that dull swords were such the norm, that units went into battle with dull swords. The British, after having a few scandals on this, they created a regulation which mandated that departing troops had to sharpen their swords before being inserted into theater.
With the exception of Japanese swords, if the sword you are handling has been sharpened, 99% of the time it was done after it was surplused.
(Well maybe 95% of the time. I can tell the difference between field sharpening on my British Infantry swords and civilian sharpening. I can think of two British Infantry swords I own that were properly field sharpened)
It would not. That was just an example, and a very rare personnel testimony that training accidents occurred, and that fatalities occurred in sword training. I thought I would share this with the forum. Maybe it was inappropriate. The Patton sword was a thrusting weapon. Anyone falling on a point would have suffered a bad wound. I own one British DP sword that the point was ground back to round. I have handled others.
I own a sawback Swiss bayonet and a German Bayonet, both issued to Pioneer troops.
As in all wars, the British were looking for “atrocities” to claim what evil brutes the Germans were. Dehumanizing of the enemy occurs in all wars. Sawback bayonets became an atrocity myth for the British.
I do know, having read enough personal accounts, that Germans caught with sawback bayonets were shot on the spot.
Shooting of prisoners were surprising common, by all sides.
Ouch!, three times!
Doc, take any dull bayonet you have, mount it on a rifle, and go bayonet cardboard, seat cushions, etc. It will go through. It won't slice as well as a sharp one, but it will poke through a human.
My Russian bayonets have ends shaped like screw drivers. Not particularly sharp, but they did go through Germans in winter coats.
...and,they'll split bone, like a chisel.I don't think they were ever used as screw drivers.
A: A sharper knife is a safer knife , it takes less effort to use , and is more predictable. Many are not used to using a sharp knife and instead have to work at cutting something with their dull knife.
B: Longer , perhaps , deeper , perhaps , bleeds more , depends , in most cases a sharp knife will cut cleanly and allow the wound to close and heal faster. I am speaking about a cut , not a stab wound.
Now if we could only make the end users as sharp as the knife itself can be, then accidents wouldn't happen , though in most cases , they are not accidents , but are more due to negligence or inadequate use.
Like a NIB unfired Colt Python, or a virginal, pristine Randall Made blade #(name your favorite model) that has never felt sharpening steel touch the edge, apparently some people will pay more for such objects. I've never met one of those wealthy individuals yet myself, mind you.
I've always read about combat troops sharpening their blades before the big landing, etc... may be as a way to not think for a bit, may be as a way to stay alive should the need arise, or maybe to upset future collectors?
So yeah, for some, leave it be and have fun with owning it. For others, since it belongs to you, have fun using it. Let your kids or grandkids worry about taking it to Antiques Roadshow and cursing you or loving you as a result of your actions.
I think a sharp edge would allow the blade to go through the heavy clothing of a soldier. I also think a blade type bayonet would do more damage than a spike type especially if the gun is twisted or levered in the wound.
One of my freinds was in the Marines at the beginning of the current war with Iraq. They didn't issue him a Ka-bar, they didn't give anyone Ka-Bars, they were to use their bayonets as utility knives to cut rope and stuff. They had to buy their own Ka-Bars and Gerber Multi-Tools and pocket knives out of their own money. Luckily, my other friend was in the MSNG, they issued Eotech HOLOsights, M-4's, and Gerber Multi-tools out of state funds. He felt sorry for the Marines when he worked with them on joint task forces.
I recently bought a bayonet for my M1 carbine. The bayonet was USGI issue, and had been rebuilt to like new condition. It came extremely sharp, with a point like a needle. Certainly the sharpest bayonet I have ever owned.
I was never issued anything cool, and I had to buy my own Ka-Bar. We were not "expected" to use our bayonets for anything. In fact, about the only thing they did get used for was mumbelty-peg or this game called Stretch.
To the point of whether or not bayonets are supposed to be dull, sharp, tipped with a laser or whatever, I submit this to you all: No soldier since perhaps Vietnam has given one hoot about his bayonet. They aren't dull because of any mandate from on high, they are dull because no one wants to take the time or put in the effort to sharpen them. Why? A good pocketknife is infinitely more useful than a bayonet, and there are better fighting knives out there. In the unlikely event that someone would lock bayonets and charge, it really doesn't matter if they are sharp or dull because all you want to do is stick someone. Rod-type bayonets had no edges and accomplished this feat with no problem, so why wouldn't a pointy, but dull, knife-type bayonet fulfill that task just as well? The truth of the matter for me was that my bayonet was nothing more than a nuisance.
Now, I can't speak historically on bayonets. Perhaps at one point there was considerably more thought and respect given to the average bayonet than what I witnessed, but I believe that modern warriors eschew the bayonet as nothing more than a PITA, with absolutely no thought given to dullness or sharpness and the impact thereof.
I payed $9.99 for the AK bayonet that I own. It has seen the whetstone more than a few times and now pulls duty as a 4x4 abuse knife. I don't think she was ever valuable to start with.
As for something nice, say a quality k31 bayonet I wouldn't want to modify the blade just for antiquity's sake.
Lets see, here are a few(I don't feel like getting new photos of the ones I still own) that are sharp,and meant to be....
WWII Japanese Type 30
WWI German 98/05
An oldie but heh,These were actually issued as a sidearm to troops who didn't rate a firearm..ie stretcher bearers, wagon drivers,etc..
Thanks for adding those.
The Chassepot is an interesting piece.
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