Captain*kirk
Member
BPCR bullets ARE lubed, usually with SPG. That's why they put grease grooves on the bullet.
Sharps .45-70
- Thread starter Armored farmer
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BPCR bullets ARE lubed, usually with SPG. That's why they put grease grooves on the bullet.
Jim Watson
Member
Unless they are paper patched like MEHavey's... or real original Sharps.
The old story of the buffalo runners digging bullets out of the carcasses to melt down and recast was not likely. Records show cases and cases of factory made paper patched bullets shipped West.
An old chart of Sharps factory ammo showed everything as paper patched except for .45-75 which was their loading of the 2.1" case commonly called .45-70.
Lots of work for women rolling paper patched bullets. I don't know how many companies went to machine patching with equipment designed by Hugo Borchardt or similar.
The old story of the buffalo runners digging bullets out of the carcasses to melt down and recast was not likely. Records show cases and cases of factory made paper patched bullets shipped West.
An old chart of Sharps factory ammo showed everything as paper patched except for .45-75 which was their loading of the 2.1" case commonly called .45-70.
Lots of work for women rolling paper patched bullets. I don't know how many companies went to machine patching with equipment designed by Hugo Borchardt or similar.
Shanghai McCoy
Member
I got a Pedersoli Sharps maybe 10 years ago and it is a fun rifle to shoot. Had a hill side deer hunting spot for a while and I took it out with me a few times but never saw anything. 
Captain*kirk
Member
Right. Thanks for correcting me on that, Jim! I don't PP (yet!) so hadn't considered that.
Point is, a lead bullet in a BPCR needs either a patch or lube of some sort if you are going to be burning black powder.
Jim Watson
Member
Well, most folks these days rub their patch paper with bullet lube. I don't know if the old timers did or not.
Is anybody shooting BPCR with powder coated or Hi Tek bullets? Seems you would still want lube to soften the fouling, although somebody reported shooting JSP with black.
Is anybody shooting BPCR with powder coated or Hi Tek bullets? Seems you would still want lube to soften the fouling, although somebody reported shooting JSP with black.
This is a great read,by Mike Venturino and Steve Garbe, the authors talks about SPG lube and has great data for reloading black powder.
https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/1214/2/BOOK-SPG
https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/1214/2/BOOK-SPG
JIM,
I used to rub 3-1 motor mica/white lithium grease (by volume) onto the patch, accompanied by a grease-saturated felt wad under the bullet. But I found that if left to sit for long period of time (years) the paper patch welded itself to the case and tore off that lower section when fired.
Now... dry patch, and plain grease disk sandwiched between card disks seems to be the solution.
Based on what I think the grease cookie does ("squish" out in compression ahead of the pressure wave and run up alongside and ahead of the bullet), the paper patch gets lubed "in real time" when fired.
So….all the guys shooting complete matches with greased lead bullets or paper patched bullets with grease cookies using 30 inch barrels and shotgun but plates are lying to us? Or maybe there not as tough and strong as you?
The 3-4” of barrel can easily cause the bullets to run out of grease. And yes, black powder bullets are greased or shot with paper patches. And that length does little for velocity or penetration.
I am unaware of any competitor who cleans his rifle after 3-4 shots. Nor do I do it with my muzzleloaders. I have figured out a load for my rifle that allows me to get 10 shots easily.
As for lube, there are many who argue over the formula for the perfect lube and usually each shooter has his own favorite.
Yeah, calling a BPC competitor a liar is a great way to make friends on this board.
Kevin
Jim Watson
Member
Not everybody or even many have a background in the pressure cooker of competition.
They can buy on looks and shoot occasionally and not know the refinements it takes when somebody is sitting behind you with a scorecard.
They can buy on looks and shoot occasionally and not know the refinements it takes when somebody is sitting behind you with a scorecard.
Driftwood Johnson
Member
Howdy
When I was shopping for a Sharps back around 15 years ago or so, I had a list of features I wanted. Pistol grip, double set triggers, and a 'shotgun' style butt. No crescent shaped butt plate for me with a 45-70 rifle.
I checked out most of the imports, with fancy checkering and pewter forend caps, and I was not impressed. Checkering that was poorly done, and forend caps pinned in place, rather than the traditional way of doing it by casting it in place on the wood and grinding and sanding to shape. Most of them had a pin holding the cap on that stood out like a sore thumb.
Rather than buy something I would probably be unhappy with every time I looked at it, I decided I did not want anything fancy, just double set triggers, pistol grip and shotgun style butt plate.
I had my local gunsmith order a Pedersoli Silhouette model from Dixie Gun Works. It was just what I wanted. Nothing fancy, no checkering, 30" octagon barrel, oil rubbed matte finish, and the three features I was looking for. Chambered for 45-70 of course. I also bought a modestly priced tang sight for it, a globe front sight, and an eye cup adjustable for different sized apertures.
I have never fired any Smokeless ammo through it, only my loads loaded with Black Powder. I don't have my loading notebook handy, but I can tell you I drop about about 70 grains of Schuetzen FFg down a 24" drop tube, use a compression die to compress the powder a bit, place a thin card wad over the powder and seat a 405 grain bullet. The round all the way on the right is one of my BP 45-70 rounds.
The bullet second from the right is the 405 grain bullet I use. I bought them from Buffalo Arms, cast by Montana Precision Swaging. I checked fairly recently, I don't think Montana Precision is still in business, I bought my bullets about 15 years ago, but I believe they have some reasonably good substitutes today.
I will admit I have not shot my Sharps in a few years now because my eyesight was so bad, but after having cataract surgery last year I am planning on loading up some ammo this fall and seeing how well I can do.
I guess I am old fashioned, I plan to use my old blow tube that I used to use to keep the fouling soft between shots.
Now for the bad news. I paid $800 for my Sharps when I bought it.
Dixie is still selling the same rifle, but the price has gone up a bit over the years:
https://www.dixiegunworks.com/index...DERSOLI+SHARPS+M1874+SILHOUETTE+RIFLE,+.45-70
When I was shopping for a Sharps back around 15 years ago or so, I had a list of features I wanted. Pistol grip, double set triggers, and a 'shotgun' style butt. No crescent shaped butt plate for me with a 45-70 rifle.
I checked out most of the imports, with fancy checkering and pewter forend caps, and I was not impressed. Checkering that was poorly done, and forend caps pinned in place, rather than the traditional way of doing it by casting it in place on the wood and grinding and sanding to shape. Most of them had a pin holding the cap on that stood out like a sore thumb.
Rather than buy something I would probably be unhappy with every time I looked at it, I decided I did not want anything fancy, just double set triggers, pistol grip and shotgun style butt plate.
I had my local gunsmith order a Pedersoli Silhouette model from Dixie Gun Works. It was just what I wanted. Nothing fancy, no checkering, 30" octagon barrel, oil rubbed matte finish, and the three features I was looking for. Chambered for 45-70 of course. I also bought a modestly priced tang sight for it, a globe front sight, and an eye cup adjustable for different sized apertures.
I have never fired any Smokeless ammo through it, only my loads loaded with Black Powder. I don't have my loading notebook handy, but I can tell you I drop about about 70 grains of Schuetzen FFg down a 24" drop tube, use a compression die to compress the powder a bit, place a thin card wad over the powder and seat a 405 grain bullet. The round all the way on the right is one of my BP 45-70 rounds.
The bullet second from the right is the 405 grain bullet I use. I bought them from Buffalo Arms, cast by Montana Precision Swaging. I checked fairly recently, I don't think Montana Precision is still in business, I bought my bullets about 15 years ago, but I believe they have some reasonably good substitutes today.
I will admit I have not shot my Sharps in a few years now because my eyesight was so bad, but after having cataract surgery last year I am planning on loading up some ammo this fall and seeing how well I can do.
I guess I am old fashioned, I plan to use my old blow tube that I used to use to keep the fouling soft between shots.
Now for the bad news. I paid $800 for my Sharps when I bought it.
Dixie is still selling the same rifle, but the price has gone up a bit over the years:
https://www.dixiegunworks.com/index...DERSOLI+SHARPS+M1874+SILHOUETTE+RIFLE,+.45-70
candymancan
member
- Joined
- Jul 30, 2021
- Messages
- 210
Hornady FTX 325 grain. rounds are 2200 fps or 3000 lbs of muzzle energy out of a 24 inch barrel according to hornady and im using them in a 34 inch long barrel.. I ment to say 2200.. but my barrel is 10 inchs longer than their test barrel. I garuntee you im pushing near 2700 and well over 3000 lbs of muzzle energy.
Just because you havent used those rounds doesnt mean it doesnt exist. The federal 300 grain fusion have nothing on these. Theyre something in the 1600 fps range i believe
How would it bend or break your rifle... shot over 150 of them so far inuding 20 more today.. nothing but a little more recoil compared to the federal fusion. But way more dmg. You should see the impact craters the FTX leave on the mounds vs the federal fusion
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eastbank
Member
- Joined
- Jul 30, 2009
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- 5,020
please get a croney and ck your load. their are three levels of loads for 45-70 rifles and none of them show a 300 gr bullet at those speeds, i don,t think an extra 10" of barrel will get you to 2700 fps. the 458 magnum will push the 300 gr bullet at 2700 fps at 52-53 thousand C.U.P. and the pedersolie is not rated that high. i have one of the pedersolie target rifles and it is a fine rifle, but i only shoot hot loads in my ruger # 1 # 3 or my winchester high walls. that being said, its your rifle use what you want.
Attachments
Uuuuuhh... Something wrong here.
Is CandyMan talking THIS ? (325gr/2,050fps/24"/1885 Marlin)
Even (impressive) as it is... an extra 10" would possibly account for only another 150-175fps.
FWIW: Look at max trapdoor load with the 325gr FTX / H335 listed by
https://www.hodgdonreloading.com/reloading-data-center?rdc=true&type=54
Just shy of 2,000fps -- so it is plausible (and unpleasant) in low-pressure actions.
But OpCit poster has lost a decimal point somewhere.
Is CandyMan talking THIS ? (325gr/2,050fps/24"/1885 Marlin)
Even (impressive) as it is... an extra 10" would possibly account for only another 150-175fps.
FWIW: Look at max trapdoor load with the 325gr FTX / H335 listed by
https://www.hodgdonreloading.com/reloading-data-center?rdc=true&type=54
Just shy of 2,000fps -- so it is plausible (and unpleasant) in low-pressure actions.
But OpCit poster has lost a decimal point somewhere.
Last edited:
Driftwood Johnson
Member
Correct me if I am wrong.
This is the Black Powder section of the forum.
The original poster asked for advice about buying a 45-70 Sharps.
He specifically mentioned Black Powder and cast bullets.
Why are we arguing about what somebody posted regarding shooting factory Smokeless loads?
???
This is the Black Powder section of the forum.
The original poster asked for advice about buying a 45-70 Sharps.
He specifically mentioned Black Powder and cast bullets.
Why are we arguing about what somebody posted regarding shooting factory Smokeless loads?
???
troy fairweather
Member
There is a Forth level of 45-70, you have now entered the twilight zone lol.
Paul R Zartman
Contributing Member
DANG NAB IT Armored Farmer....
Now I WANT/NEED one just as you and Driftwood have described
Captain*kirk
Member
Once you get a little Sharps and BPCR in your blood, you're a goner.
W/Vickers1938
Member
I wish you all the best in your pursuit of a 1874 Sharps replica. My personal experience is with a 45 3 1/4 Business rifle by Shiloh 28 inch heavy round barrel, double set triggers the crescent steel buttplate. twenty rounds of 1F, lube felt wad, topped by 500 grn greaser. My shoulder was bruised for a week. Now I have a Shiloh Hartford 50 2 1/2, 32 inch heavy octagon, I have some loads ready Swiss 1 1/2, card wad felt lube wad card wad ,600 grain paper patch. Any way get a Shiloh, you will never regret it. Good luck and have fun.
Captain*kirk
Member
One thing is certain; the price of these Sharps replicas is not likely to go down. If you have any inkling of buying one, pull the trigger now (pun intended)
Rebel Dave
Member
I have a Garrett Arms Sharps rifle in .50 x 3 1/4, had it since 84 or 5. Shot it a few times back then, its currently in my gun safe going up in value. It did pretty good on the gabage can covers (mostly metal back then) at 3-400 yards.
Dave
Dave
Driftwood Johnson
Member
Howdy Again
I would just like to mention that in his book Shooting Buffalo Rifles of the Old West, Mike Venturino advises the first cartridge one should start with is 45-70. Components are more easily available and so are load recipes. I found this to be good advice, that's why my Sharps is chambered for 45-70. Have not felt the need to buy another one in one of the larger calibers.
I would just like to mention that in his book Shooting Buffalo Rifles of the Old West, Mike Venturino advises the first cartridge one should start with is 45-70. Components are more easily available and so are load recipes. I found this to be good advice, that's why my Sharps is chambered for 45-70. Have not felt the need to buy another one in one of the larger calibers.
candymancan
member
- Joined
- Jul 30, 2021
- Messages
- 210
Uuuuuhh... Something wrong here.
Is CandyMan talking THIS ? (325gr/2,050fps/24"/1885 Marlin)
Even (impressive) as it is... an extra 10" would possibly account for only another 150-175fps.
FWIW: Look at max trapdoor load with the 325gr FTX / H335 listed by
https://www.hodgdonreloading.com/reloading-data-center?rdc=true&type=54
Just shy of 2,000fps -- so it is plausible (and unpleasant) in low-pressure actions.
But OpCit poster has lost a decimal point somewhere.
150-175.. umm 3 inchs on a revolver accounts for that much.. What makes ya think 10 inchs more on a rifle would do 150
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