nalioth
Member
Oy Vey
Shipped a handgun UPS today
- Thread starter blue_ridge
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oneounceload
member
too funny...................not
medalguy
Member
Before this thread gets closed, let me add my .02 on the subject of dealing with UPS counter employees. My son is a manager with UPS and he informs me that virtually all of their clerks are part-time people. Many of the managers and supervisors are part-time as well.
If you have any kind of question like this about what the counter clerk says vs the posted on-line policy, ALWAYS ask to speak to a FULL-TIME SUPERVISOR. Ask the person if he is a full-time sup, and if not, again ask for a full-time sup. The part-timers come and go and are no more well informed than the clerks. You HAVE to go to a full-time supervisor to get correct information. And, if there's any disagreement between what the counter people tell you, ask them to go to their own web site and look at what's posted there. The web site IS the official information source for both UPS employees and the public.
If you have any kind of question like this about what the counter clerk says vs the posted on-line policy, ALWAYS ask to speak to a FULL-TIME SUPERVISOR. Ask the person if he is a full-time sup, and if not, again ask for a full-time sup. The part-timers come and go and are no more well informed than the clerks. You HAVE to go to a full-time supervisor to get correct information. And, if there's any disagreement between what the counter people tell you, ask them to go to their own web site and look at what's posted there. The web site IS the official information source for both UPS employees and the public.
bbuddtec
Member
My .02c Seems like the best thing to do is ftf shopping around before you need it, then you can make deals before you are "under the gun" and have to settle in the eleventh hour. From reading the past posts, I'd start searching for ffls... I did and found out I had one I already knew, 
! FFL's could be the cheapest, and definitely are the easiest way.
! FFL's could be the cheapest, and definitely are the easiest way.woad_yurt
Member
Regarding my mis-info:
Wow. I think I did get my original info from the ATF FAQ. I stand corrected.
Wow. I think I did get my original info from the ATF FAQ. I stand corrected.
nalioth
Member
The ATF FAQ has been known to have a few "discrepancies" in it.woad_yurt said:
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
Correct but the statements made were pertaining to federal law, not company policy. When an individual is shipping to an FFL, there is no law requiring you to notify the shipper that the package contains a firearm. This is a requirement of company policies. The point being that you can legally ship a handgun by UPS or FedEx Ground service but you do so at your own peril. Because if you have to file a claim for loss or damage, they will not honor the insurance claim due to the policy violation.
Missileman
Member
I shipped a 1911 (broken recoil assenbly/rod) back to the manufacturer yesterday by UPS with all the accompanying crap.
I went in and they said I had to have an FFL # of the receiver to verify the receiving address. I explained to them that was true in a sale or transfer, this was neither. It was going to be repaired and returned to me. No FFL required. Supervisor called corporate office and they explained to him I was right, but corporate policy said he would have to check the "send to" address against an approved list of gun importers/manufacturers to make sure I really was sending it to a manufacturer. They directed him to the list in the system. He checked and I was.
Then they pulled out the overnight rate requirement. I then informed them I understood that if this was a working firearm, but again it was not. It was broken and even if reassembled could not be fired. Since it was non functional it could go 2 day. He called corporate again and again he was told I was correct. They instructed him to label it NON-FUNCTIONAL firearms parts without any ammo/ hazardous materials and send it 2 day for $29 w/$500 insurance.
I was firm, but polite so he tended to believe me and bothered to make the calls. Afterward he actually thanked me because this had made him learn a lot. He then made sure all the other employees there were briefed on what went on. This was at the regional hub 3 blocks from my house.
Other than time consuming it went fairly well
I went in and they said I had to have an FFL # of the receiver to verify the receiving address. I explained to them that was true in a sale or transfer, this was neither. It was going to be repaired and returned to me. No FFL required. Supervisor called corporate office and they explained to him I was right, but corporate policy said he would have to check the "send to" address against an approved list of gun importers/manufacturers to make sure I really was sending it to a manufacturer. They directed him to the list in the system. He checked and I was.
Then they pulled out the overnight rate requirement. I then informed them I understood that if this was a working firearm, but again it was not. It was broken and even if reassembled could not be fired. Since it was non functional it could go 2 day. He called corporate again and again he was told I was correct. They instructed him to label it NON-FUNCTIONAL firearms parts without any ammo/ hazardous materials and send it 2 day for $29 w/$500 insurance.
I was firm, but polite so he tended to believe me and bothered to make the calls. Afterward he actually thanked me because this had made him learn a lot. He then made sure all the other employees there were briefed on what went on. This was at the regional hub 3 blocks from my house.
Other than time consuming it went fairly well
NavyLCDR
member
Interesting post Missileman, glad it worked out for you.
A couple of points stood out to me:
1. The company that you sent the firearm to DOES possess an FFL. If they are not in the same state as you, it would have been illegal for you to ship the gun to them. Every legal commercial manufacturer of firearms possess an FFL.
2. You still shipped a firearm, according to Federal law. A firearm is still a firearm until it is rendered permanently inoperable. To render a firearm permanently inoperable requires:
Since your firearm was capable of being readily restored to a firing condition, it was still a firearm.
Glad you worked around their overnight requirement anyway.
A couple of points stood out to me:
1. The company that you sent the firearm to DOES possess an FFL. If they are not in the same state as you, it would have been illegal for you to ship the gun to them. Every legal commercial manufacturer of firearms possess an FFL.
2. You still shipped a firearm, according to Federal law. A firearm is still a firearm until it is rendered permanently inoperable. To render a firearm permanently inoperable requires:
Since your firearm was capable of being readily restored to a firing condition, it was still a firearm.
Glad you worked around their overnight requirement anyway.
Missileman
Member
I understannd what your saying NavyLT, but UPS was wanting to do a FFL to FFL transfer which wasn't required. They also wanted me to get a copy of the companies FFL for address verification only, which many manufacturers will not/ do not do. Many manufacturers do not even do any sale or transfer operations on property. I know they supposedly can with a type 7, but do to local ordinances or company policy will not bother with all the paperwork/record keeping to direct sell/transfer a firearm. A couple local gun companies here in FL can trade your guns in for replacement, but cannot sell you or even give you a new firearm. They have to transfer it to a distributor who then gives it to an FFL for you to pick up. I know this because I test some guns for one of the companies. I beleive in their cases it is a zoning issue since the facilities are in industrial only zones. In my case it was an importer who has also chosen not to bother with individual sales paperwork. Many companies guard their FFL information pretty tightly also. Why I don't know, but they do.
As far as it being a firearm, you are correct it was still a firearm, but it could not have been made operational with the parts included in the package. It would have required many parts from the manufacturer before being able to operate. UPS and FedEx policies are usually concerned more from a safety stand point. If that package is stolen, is it a shooting gun, or is it just a bunch gun parts. Since my recoil rod broke during rapid fire shooting the slide jammed, the recoil spring plug and barrel bushing went out the front on the next shot. It has a few parts that may be useable, but it is a warped and twisted bunch of pieces. By strict ATF rules, yes it is still a firearm, but from a safety concern standpoint, it cannot be easily made operational.
As usual it is a guessing game to what the rules are today compared to yesterday. I believe that next time I have to send in a gun I will go through my local gun shop. I have a S&W 586-1 .357 that has to go back for mod and it is going to test the gun shop method this time. That is if S&W can find the parts to do it
As far as it being a firearm, you are correct it was still a firearm, but it could not have been made operational with the parts included in the package. It would have required many parts from the manufacturer before being able to operate. UPS and FedEx policies are usually concerned more from a safety stand point. If that package is stolen, is it a shooting gun, or is it just a bunch gun parts. Since my recoil rod broke during rapid fire shooting the slide jammed, the recoil spring plug and barrel bushing went out the front on the next shot. It has a few parts that may be useable, but it is a warped and twisted bunch of pieces. By strict ATF rules, yes it is still a firearm, but from a safety concern standpoint, it cannot be easily made operational.
As usual it is a guessing game to what the rules are today compared to yesterday. I believe that next time I have to send in a gun I will go through my local gun shop. I have a S&W 586-1 .357 that has to go back for mod and it is going to test the gun shop method this time. That is if S&W can find the parts to do it
NavyLCDR
member
Missileman said:
Then my question is, why would it be any different for a sale or a transfer? You are still shipping the guns across state lines which requires the gun be shipped to an FFL. It doesn't matter if it is a sale/transfer/gift/repair.
The difference for a repair or replacement firearm is when that FFL returns the gun directly to you. But there is no difference in you shipping the gun to them just because it is a repair and not a sale or transfer.
Missileman
Member
The primary reason for the FFL transfer is to track ownership, collect taxes, and insure background checks are completed. Since returning a gun to a gunsmith or manufacturer gunsmith for repair is not a change in ownership different rules apply. Excerpts from ATF FFL FAQs:
Q: A firearm is delivered to a licensee by an unlicensed individual for the purpose of repair. Is the return of the repaired firearm subject to the requirements of the Brady law? Would the transfer of a replacement firearm from the licensee to the owner of the damaged firearm be subject to the requirements of the Brady law?
Neither the transfer of a repaired firearm nor the transfer of a replacement firearm would be subject to the requirements of the Brady law. Furthermore, the regulations provide that a Form 4473 is not required to cover these transactions. However, the licensee’s permanent acquisition and disposition records should reflect the return of the firearm or the transfer of a replacement firearm.
[27 CFR 478.124-25]
Since all manufacturers and gunsmiths are licensed this one would always apply:
Q: May a nonlicensee ship a firearm by common or contract carrier?
A nonlicensee may ship a firearm by a common or contract carrier to a resident of his or her own State or to a licensee in any State. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun. In addition, Federal law requires that the carrier be notified that the shipment contains a firearm and prohibits common or contract carriers from requiring or causing any label to be placed on any package indicating that it contains a firearm.
[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(2)(A), 922(a) (3), 922(a)(5) and 922(e), 27 CFR 478.31 and 478.30]
Many of the rules can be found here: http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/
It's still all a mixed up tangled mess.
Today's experience...
Having a pistol shipped to me from Kentucky. Mike went to UPS and said 2nd Day Air.
And yes, they shipped it 2nd Day Air, I just got the tracking info from UPS Quantum View.
Cost (with insurance and adult signature) is $45.07.
Having a pistol shipped to me from Kentucky. Mike went to UPS and said 2nd Day Air.
And yes, they shipped it 2nd Day Air, I just got the tracking info from UPS Quantum View.
Cost (with insurance and adult signature) is $45.07.
NavyLCDR
member
Missileman said:
On YOUR end of the transaction, as a private party shipping a firearm out of state, the Federal laws are exactly the same. You were under absolutely no different rules sending your broken gun to the manufacturer for repair than if you were shipping a perfectly operable gun to a person's receiving FFL after selling it to them.
The only rules that are different are for the manufacturer returning the gun to you.
You were able to convince UPS that somehow the rules were different in your circumstance, but according to Federal law, as a private party shipping a gun out of state, the legal requirements were exactly the same.
Anger
Member
Op.... I would just dispute the difference with your credit card and be done with it
NavyLCDR
member
Anger said:
There is nothing to dispute with the credit card company. UPS charged him exactly what he agreed to pay and, presumably, they sent the gun by the exact method that he paid for.
Missileman
Member
This is not completely true. It is correct that I must ship to a license holder as is the normal requirement. What is different is that I DO NOT have to fill out a form 4473 transfer form. I also do not have to turn the gun in to a local FFL for transfer so the form can be filed and stored. I also DO NOT have to supply a copy of the receiving FFL license for verification that they are willing to accept the transfer. True the manufacturer is licensed and willingness to accept is implied since an RA# is issued. UPS can verify the address from a list they have so no form is required. And as in the previous post the reciver does not fill out any transfer forms since ownership does not change. It is similar, but it is different. There is no paperwork required on either end.
NavyLCDR
member
Missileman said:
Like I said.... nothing is different. As the SELLER or GIFTOR of the firearm you don't have to do any of that either.
Whether you are taking the gun to a local FFL for them to mail the gun to the receiving FFL or shipping the gun to the receiving FFL yourself for transfer to the buyer/recipient, all that is required is for the FFL to log in the name and address of the person it came from. There is no form 4473, no NICS check, and no requirement (in law) for a copy of the recipient's FFL to be provided by the seller/giftor.
Again, the Federal laws are EXACTLY the same when a person SENDS/SHIPS a gun out of state if the firearm is gifted, sold, or sent to a manufacturer for repair. The ONLY difference is on the receiving end - a manufacturer/gunsmith can return a firearm directly to you.
Missileman
Member
You're right. I made the incorrect ASSumption that being Federal it would be the same every where. Turns out it is not. As usual, states get involved and change the rules. Federal law is exactly like you said. Some states force a counter form both sending and receiving. Some force interstate transfer to be FFL TO FFL only and do not allow a non licensee to ship dirctly to an FFL. Some require an advance acknowledgment before common carrier can accept the firearm. They all follow the federal law to a minimum, but then put more and more crap into the mix.
Florida has been even worse with local sheriffs being able to set the rules in there county like a nearby county where a 5 day wait is required for any firearm purchase, handgun, rifle, or shotgun. We just passed a new law forcing all counties to conform to state law and fining them for non compliance. It was also suppossed to make them liable for legal fees if the county lost, but I don't know if that part stayed in.
I now see why FFL's can end up in prison for not following a rule that they did not understand correctly. What an absolute mess.
So I apologize NavyLT. Something an NCO always finds hard to do or say, but you are correct
Florida has been even worse with local sheriffs being able to set the rules in there county like a nearby county where a 5 day wait is required for any firearm purchase, handgun, rifle, or shotgun. We just passed a new law forcing all counties to conform to state law and fining them for non compliance. It was also suppossed to make them liable for legal fees if the county lost, but I don't know if that part stayed in.
I now see why FFL's can end up in prison for not following a rule that they did not understand correctly. What an absolute mess.
So I apologize NavyLT. Something an NCO always finds hard to do or say, but you are correct
NavyLCDR
member
Missileman said:
And Osama Bin Laden is dead too! I am circling this day TWICE on my calendar!
No sweat, though. I shipped a Thompson Contender back to them for repair via FEDEX. A Thompson Contender is 100% handgun, just with a 14" barrel. Anyway the FEDEX counter guy asked if he could look in the package, so I let him open the package, he looked at the gun, closed and sealed it back up and asked, "Air or ground?" I didn't even blink and answered, "GROUND!" Saved about $50. I got my fully repaired Contender back in about 4 weeks delivered by UPS ground.
And, I was NOT taking into account state laws. State laws may, indeed, make shipping a handgun different for return to a manufacturer than for a sale or gift. So I was not 100% correct...only on the Federal level.
When did USPS change?
I am feeling the OP's pain. I need to ship a Tomcat back to Beretta and got a severe case of sticker shock when I found out that I must use UPS with their amazing rates.
I shipped a Tomcat back to Beretta in 2002 via Priority Mail. I still have the receipts. It cost me $3.95 for shipping plus $4 to insure it for $300. No hassles, no issues. I shipped a new gun back to S&W in 2005 for warranty service. As best I remember, I sent that via Priority Mail also. I don't have the receipts for that one handy, so I can't be absolutely sure it was Priority Mail, but I'm sure I would remember if I had been ripped by UPS.
Does anyone know when USPS changed their policy? I would like to find out more about this with the idea that something might be done about it. It makes no sense to me that a FFL license holder can ship a handgun to a manufacturer via Priority Mail, but the common clod cannot.
I am feeling the OP's pain. I need to ship a Tomcat back to Beretta and got a severe case of sticker shock when I found out that I must use UPS with their amazing rates.
I shipped a Tomcat back to Beretta in 2002 via Priority Mail. I still have the receipts. It cost me $3.95 for shipping plus $4 to insure it for $300. No hassles, no issues. I shipped a new gun back to S&W in 2005 for warranty service. As best I remember, I sent that via Priority Mail also. I don't have the receipts for that one handy, so I can't be absolutely sure it was Priority Mail, but I'm sure I would remember if I had been ripped by UPS.
Does anyone know when USPS changed their policy? I would like to find out more about this with the idea that something might be done about it. It makes no sense to me that a FFL license holder can ship a handgun to a manufacturer via Priority Mail, but the common clod cannot.
killchain
Member
The one time I made the mistake of shipping a handgun in for repair, I ended up paying for next-day air signature.
About $110.
On a $250 handgun.
About $110.
On a $250 handgun.
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
And if you don't hold an FFL, you committed a felony both times.
I'm careful to follow the rules and I don't recall any problems. I'm pretty sure that I told the PO what I was sending. The address makes it pretty obvious. I remember a pleasant transaction at the PO. That's why I asked when the rules changed. I guess I can contact the PO and ask.
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