Shipping firearms - a rant

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DickP

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Feb 15, 2008
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San Antonio, TX
Hello all:

I just shipped an old Winchester Model 12 to a buddy of mine - this was my first experience shipping firearms. I sent it UPS from San Antonio to an FFL holder (sporting goods store) in Des Moines.

Every single person I dealt with from UPS was professional and helpful.

What got me grinding my teeth was the fact that the one (1) UPS location in San Antonio "authorized" to ship firearms is situated in a warehouse buried in an industrial park. After I finally found the place, drove through the razor-wire gate and past the guardhouse, found the "visitor center", filled out their forms, verified my identity and got my box mailed, I felt like I'd just shipped a crate of bazookas to Azerbaijan.

"Welcome to the world", right? Thanks all, I just needed to vent...
 
Pretty much all UPS "customer service centers" are like that. They are part of their distribution center and security of the facility is usually pretty tight.

I don't know why you felt like you needed to vent as it sounds like your experience was a positive one.:rolleyes:
 
USPS is a lot easier for sending rifles. I was lucky, I had a very helpful FEDEX employee when I shipped a handgun back to the manufacturer! He cut me a huge break on the shipping cost.
 
Let's put it this way: You paid for & entrusted a valuable piece of merchandise to a vendor. Now that you've done that the vendor now has a legal and professional obligation to ensure that rticle is secured, processed, shipped and delivered, undamaged. That happened. My son works for UPS in San Diego. He took me on a tour there to see how parcels are handled, etc. The lot on which it is situated is well secured with high fences topped with razor wire, entry points are guarded and I had to be signed in and out. Cameras all over the place. Not only do they have thier millions of dollars worth of vehicles and equipment, they have YOUR property to protect from that ctriminal elelment. Be glad they are that way.
 
When I left iraq, I mailed two packages from kuwait via priority mail. I ordered a couple items via internet that was shipped via ups. The packages from kuwait got to my house 10 full days before my ups packages only going across a few states.
 
Should have seen the local post office's face when I shipped handguns. I walked up to the counter and said "I need to ship a handgun." The lady kind of turned white, and said "hold on a moment". Then some important looking guy (presumably a manager of some sort) came out and told me "you can't ship handguns in the mail."

I said, "sure I can. I have a federal firearms license." He still refused. It actually took some clever social convincing to get them to take the time go look it up in that massive domestic mail manual they had collecting dust on the shelf. And presto, there it was... on page 8gagillionand9. Federal firearms licensees are allowed to ship handguns to one another. :)

After we all had a nice talk and went through "the book", it took them half an hour to find the appropriate form and make copies. I provided them a copy of both my FFL and the destination FFL, and the angry patrons behind me in line put away the noose they were tying.

No one in town had ever done it before, I guess. It got easier after that, to the point they merely "groaned" when I came in the door with a plain white box...
 
Trent Should have seen the local post office's face when I shipped handguns. I walked up to the counter and said "I need to ship a handgun."....
I said, "sure I can. I have a federal firearms license."..... Federal firearms licensees are allowed to ship handguns to one another.
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To be clear.........
Just the fact that you have an FFL does not allow you to mail handguns. USPS doesn't use the term "FFL", instead they use the terms "licensed dealers" and "licensed manufacturers". A holder of an 03FFL (collector of curios & relics) IS an FFL.....but not a licensed dealer or manufacturer and therefore cannot mail a handgun through the USPS. 03FFL's cannot mail or receive by mail any firearm other than eligible rifles or shotguns.

After we all had a nice talk and went through "the book", it took them half an hour to find the appropriate form and make copies.
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So you wasted their time AND yours when you could have printed out the Form 1508 on your own?:confused: Those Form 1508's go a long way in providing proof that licensed dealers can actually mail a handgun.

I provided them a copy of both my FFL and the destination FFL....
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Why?:scrutiny:
There is no USPS requirement to show or provide them with your FFL or anyone elses. Doing so will make it more difficult for the next dealer who attempts to mail a handgun and they refuse because he didn't bring the copies of his FFL. The ONLY document a licensed dealer or manufacturer must provide is the Form 1508, and only when mailing a handgun.

NO ONE, licensed dealer, manufacturer or average joe is required to provide an FFL copy to the USPS......ever.
 
dogtown tom said:
To be clear.........
Just the fact that you have an FFL does not allow you to mail handguns. USPS doesn't use the term "FFL", instead they use the terms "licensed dealers" and "licensed manufacturers". A holder of an 03FFL (collector of curios & relics) IS an FFL.....but not a licensed dealer or manufacturer and therefore cannot mail a handgun through the USPS. 03FFL's cannot mail or receive by mail any firearm other than eligible rifles or shotguns.


So you wasted their time AND yours when you could have printed out the Form 1508 on your own?:confused: Those Form 1508's go a long way in providing proof that licensed dealers can actually mail a handgun.


Why?:scrutiny:
There is no USPS requirement to show or provide them with your FFL or anyone elses. Doing so will make it more difficult for the next dealer who attempts to mail a handgun and they refuse because he didn't bring the copies of his FFL. The ONLY document a licensed dealer or manufacturer must provide is the Form 1508, and only when mailing a handgun.

NO ONE, licensed dealer, manufacturer or average joe is required to provide an FFL copy to the USPS......ever.
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Why the hostility? I'm not psychic, and never made it a point to sit down and study the 1000+ page domestic mail manual for fun or profit...

I had never shipped firearms in the mail before that day. I was returning a defective CAI-imported Tokarev pistol with a serious frame problem back to Centerfire Systems for exchange. They said I could ship it USPS, told me to bring a copy of my FFL along with me in case the the post office declined to accept it (which they did, at first). They didn't mention anything about bringing along form 1508.

So I went down there, and the story follows from there, as I wrote it.

Later on, when I was doing GunBroker auctions towards the end of my FFL license, things went much more smoothly.

We also had a similar experience the first time we tried to ship ammunition, didn't know about ORM-D tags! Half hour to UPS each way. They wouldn't supply stickers at the counter. So Charles (worked with me) burned two hours of travel, total. Had to come back to the shop to print out ORM-D tags to tape on the shipping boxes.

Just like the USPS thing, we'd never done it before, and simply didn't know it was required.
 
Trent:...Why the hostility?...
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You said it yourself.....
....and the angry patrons behind me in line put away the noose they were tying....
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I'm not being hostile, just trying to figure out why someone who doesn't know USPS regs on shipping handguns is making fun of USPS clerks.
 
One time my wife asked me to pick up an item at a UPS distributor facility. It was in the middle of nowhere. I had to use "Visual flight reference" when the GPS could not find its location.
 
Dick, where is it in SA? I'm kinda curious, might roll on by some time to check it out. I work behind armed guards every day, but no barbed wire. And no, the guns aren't for keeping me in line. (I don't think so, at least!:uhoh:)
 
BP Hunter said:
One time my wife asked me to pick up an item at a UPS distributor facility. It was in the middle of nowhere. I had to use "Visual flight reference" when the GPS could not find its location.
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You might have been better off to use IFR - "I Follow Road"!
 
xcgates - I'm talking about the location at 6400 Seven States Drive.

Someone mentioned that the purpose of the guards and fences and stuff was to secure customers' packages (rather than UPS's trucks) and I'm sure that's true, to a point. The reason I was complaining is because in the past I've sent items far more valuable than a beat up old shotgun via UPS by dropping my box off at the store closest to my home, and this is the first time I was told "no, we can't accept that here - you gotta go to location X." From which I can only conclude that the reason the first location wouldn't accept it had nothing to do with the intrinsic value of my package and everything to do with the fact that my package contained a firearm.

But I mean, yeah, I understand that in these times of hyper-litigation, UPS wants to be sure it doesn't get sued by the family of someone who gets shot by a gun stolen out of one of their stores, so now I gotta run around and find the securest facility in the city before I can drop off my package...

Just gripin', that's all...
 
dogtown tom said:
You said it yourself.....

I'm not being hostile, just trying to figure out why someone who doesn't know USPS regs on shipping handguns is making fun of USPS clerks.
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For the exact reason I mentioned.

This is what I don't understand. For some reason, you would expect me - not an employee of the USPS - to know obscure shipping regulations buried on page 823 of a 1000+ page manual. Sure, you have a point - I could have stopped whatever I was doing, wasted however much of my time it took to look things up. OR... I could simply hop in the car and drive four blocks over, with my FFL and handgun as I was directed to do by the vendor.

Beyond this, though, you seem to put the burden of this discovery on me, instead of the clerk behind the counter. The fact is, the staff behind the counter at the USPS office - people who are paid to know what's in that big DMM manual - didn't have the slightest clue on how to ship a handgun, either! They didn't know the answer themselves, and had to spend a half hour looking it up in that big book.

The point of what I'm saying here, is you assumed that 100% of the burden was on my shoulders, and that this issue my fault. Meanwhile you simply ignore the fact that the clerk behind the counter - and the manager in the corner office - both didn't know their job any more than I knew their job.

You may not THINK you were being hostile when you wrote that, but clearly what you wrote was done so with a great deal of bias against what I had written, but the motive eludes me.

I'm sorry, but I don't make it a point in life to walk in to every situation "prepared to educate" people just to feel superior about myself. There is a marked difference between being "educated", and simply being a know-it-all who has a point to prove. I do not see a need to go around explaining to everyone I come across all of the things they might happen to be doing "wrong" at any point in time.

When the furnace guy works on the furnace, I trust him to be competent, and at most, offer to hold a flashlight. I don't stand over his shoulder and say "HEY STUPID YOU ARE DOING IT ALL WRONG", because fixing furnaces isn't my job. Neither is processing packages of mail for shipment. At the time, my job was to sell firearms, and I did so with a high level of competency.
 
Sorry if I hurt your feelings....

Trent
This is what I don't understand. For some reason, you would expect me - not an employee of the USPS - to know obscure shipping regulations buried on page 823 of a 1000+ page manual.
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It took me less than thirty seconds to find USPS firearm shipping requirements in the online Domestic Mail Manual. Usps.com has a search feature.

Beyond this, though, you seem to put the burden of this discovery on me, instead of the clerk behind the counter. The fact is, the staff behind the counter at the USPS office - people who are paid to know what's in that big DMM manual - didn't have the slightest clue on how to ship a handgun, either! They didn't know the answer themselves, and had to spend a half hour looking it up in that big book.
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If I make a mistake I am in violation of Federal law. Knowing the USPS regulations (or where to find them) keeps me from losing my FFL.

I agree, USPS employees do not know every single regulation in the DMM, I don't expect them to. That's why I knew the exact section of the DMM before I mailed my first handgun.



The point of what I'm saying here, is you assumed that 100% of the burden was on my shoulders, and that this issue my fault.
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Nope, I didn't say that. But I'm sure you would agree that if you had looked up the USPS regs on mailing handguns prior, you would have been out of there quicker.

Meanwhile you simply ignore the fact that the clerk behind the counter - and the manager in the corner office - both didn't know their job any more than I knew their job.
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Ignore? That's MY POINT!!!:D Know the regs better than the UPS clerk, the FedEx clerk, and the USPS clerk........

I'm sorry, but I don't make it a point in life to walk in to every situation "prepared to educate" people just to feel superior about myself.
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Sorry, I didn't become a teacher to feel superior to anyone. I work with special needs kids who are far easier to work with than postal clerks.

I go PREPARED... not superior, when I go to the post office. If I didn't educate my local post office I wouldn't be mailing handguns, rifles or shotguns from there........see, they told me "you can't mail guns". I politely showed them that I could.

....because fixing furnaces isn't my job. Neither is processing packages of mail for shipment. At the time, my job was to sell firearms, and I did so with a high level of competency.
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Having an FFL means complying with all Federal laws regarding commerce in firearms. Failure to properly follow USPS regulations because you don't feel it's part of your job is foolish. :rolleyes:

While you may be happy going through life trusting the knowledge of others, I am not. If I believed everything someone told me (rather than researching it myself) I would not have my FFL (because Clinton outlawed kitchen table dealers) and I wouldn't be mailing handguns (because the ATF website says handguns are not mailable).
 
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