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Shocked By CCH Holders Yesterday

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by MikeNice, Oct 5, 2010.

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  1. MikeNice

    MikeNice Member

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    I was listening to talk radio yesterday and became rather shocked. The show was about Virginia eliminating the ban on carrying in “bars.” It was actually an elimination of carrying in places that sell alcohol for consumption on premises. Yet everybody bit the bait. They allowed the discussion to become almost solely about guns in bars.

    What really surprised me where the number of professed CCH permitees calling to say “guns and alcohol don’t mix.” There were several CCH permit holders saying, “I don’t see the point in having a gun in a bar, guns and alcohol don’t mix.” I don’t think one person said anything about the likely hood of getting attacked by some one and needing defense. They bought right in to the host’s assertion that a gun in a bar is automatically a bad idea.

    I most admit that it started off with a hand full of calls supporting allowing carry. However, they were talking about the situation as “legislating morality.” Nobody brought up the fact that it was illegal to carry concealed if you have even one drink until nearly the end. There was also only one guy that brought up the fact that the law restricts restaurants as well. Even then he didn’t make a great argument.

    I was just shocked that no one really stood up and made a strong argument for repealing the law. Nobody made a point that leaving a loaded gun in the car makes it easier for bad guys to get your gun. Nobody really made a point that a lot of incidents happen in the parking lot.

    Are CCH holders really so brain washed that they believe that they can not be trusted? Is your average CCH holder really that bad at debating the validity of their rights? Do we need an education campaign for CCH holders?

    I was shocked and disappointed by the CCH holders listening yesterday. I kept trying to call in and present my thoughts. However, the lines stayed busy almost the whole time. When I did finally get through I was informed there wasn't enough time. I was told to call back another time.
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2010
  2. M-Cameron

    M-Cameron member

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    My guess would be some clever Antis took advantage of radio anonymity.
     
  3. longhair75

    longhair75 Member

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    I certainly know when I have had enough to drink that my judgment is impaired, and have no problem locking my pistol up until I get home. In Nebraska, it is still unlawful to carry your concealed weapon into an establishment that derives more than 50% of its income from alcohol sales. The legal limit for driving with alcohol in your system is .08, but the legal limit for carrying a concealed firearm is 0.0. This may be taking this zero tolerance too far, but it is the law. Lobby to change the law if you are not in agreement, but we must abide by it while it stands. What separates us from the bad guys is that we remain law abiding citizens.
     
  4. doc2rn

    doc2rn Member

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    I agree alcohol and guns should never come together. If your the designated driver and not drinking I see nothing wrong with being armed.
     
  5. lwknight

    lwknight Member

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    With the statement regarding guns and alcohol not mixing , the ops post leads me to believe that they re not talking about going to the local bar just for a hamburger and coca cola.
    We all know that drinking and driving do not mix so why would drinking and weapons be any different.
    If a bar is rough enough that you feel you must be armed there , maybe you should not even be there in the first place.
     
  6. General Geoff

    General Geoff Member

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    I personally never drink (can't stand alcohol), and if I did I probably wouldn't carry when doing so at a bar. However, I don't think it's the government's responsibility to tell people whether they can or can't have a drink while carrying.
     
  7. Jorg Nysgerrig

    Jorg Nysgerrig Member

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    Apparently you've missed the dozens of posts on this very forum by the teetotaling masses decry those who would even consider imbibing the devil's drink, gun or no gun. Despite the fact they insist that owning a gun doesn't magically turn you into some kind of bloodthirsty vigilante, a mere glass of wine with dinner leads to a dark path of drunkenness that will surely destroy the very fabric of this nation. Sure, there are studies that indicate being drowsy results in a similar level of impairment, but no one seems to suggest locking up the guns when one is tired.
     
  8. Bubbles

    Bubbles Member

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    When debating this you have to understand both VA's concealed carry laws, and the laws regulating establishments that serve alcohol for on-premises consumption. I'd bet that none of these facts were discussed during the radio program:

    First, Virginia doesn't have "bars" like you'd find in the rest of the country. Any establishment with a liquor license (LL) must derive over 50% of its gross receipts from the sale of food.

    Second, prior to "shall-issue" being passed in the mid-90's, there were no prohibitions at all on carrying a firearm, whether open or concealed, into an establishment with a LL. Concealed carry was prohibited as a bone thrown to the anti's/moderates in exchange for shall-issue CHL's.

    Third, there few if any "CUI" incidents even prior to 1995 by permit-holders.

    Fourth, the prohibition that was passed only applied to concealed carry; open carry in an establishment with a LL remained legal, and was practiced.

    Fifth, CUI (carry under the influence) is illegal.
     
  9. GimpyLeg

    GimpyLeg Member

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    We've been through all of this in TN recently. Everyone wants to make the statement that "guns and alcohol don't mix". I doubt there are few who do think that they do mix. However, in TN, this law included Applebees, Outback, Chili's, and the rest of the eateries that also serve mixed drinks for consumption on premisis. TN's law change was meant to allow a CP holder to sit down and enjoy a meal at an establishment that also serves drink without having to disarm.

    When the original law passed, the antis went nuts. They sued, they placed ads, they put up billboards, said TN would be a 'wild west' with shootouts nightly and blood flowing in the streets. The law was struck down for vagueness as TN does not have "bars" and law abiding citizens couldn't tell if a business made most of it's money from eatin' or drinkin'.

    Round two of the law clarified little, but was compromised by allowing ghostbuster signs to be placed in establishments that didn't want CP holder business (the original law allowed for posting, but was specific on what the sign looked like).

    My point is that the REAL issue to me is that I am responsible for me. The TN law says I cannot be under the influence of anything if I am packing. You, mister resturant owner, are not responsible to police me of this. Nor am I going to turn over to you the responsibility for my safety and protection. Again, I am responsible for me. Place your ghostbuster signs all you want. I will either find someone else to spend my time and money, or you wont know the difference.
     
  10. Deanimator

    Deanimator Member

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    I like to drink.
    I like to carry a gun.

    I NEVER do both at the same time.

    Hopefully, if Kasich isn't elected governor and vetoes it, next year Ohio will allow me to eat in a decent restaurant with a liquor license, and NOT drink.
     
  11. Yo Mama

    Yo Mama Member

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    We have discussed this before in THR, and you have 2 sets of folks: those that have no problem with it, and those who do.

    My sentiment is to leave me alone as I'm not worried that when I drink I'm a danger to anything other than my bed and pillow.

    It worries me that people for RTKBA believe that once you decide to drink, that you should be disarmed and a target. It would be more usefull to know your own limits, and not affect others rights.
     
  12. MikeNice

    MikeNice Member

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    This is the thing that drives me insane about gun owners and CCH permitees. I mean you could say the same thing about the neighborhood you live in. You could say the same thing about the street you drive down to get some where. You could use that logic to eventually just say you never need a gun. Just avoid any place you feel you need one.

    How many times have we heard, "this is such a nice place I can't believe it happened here?" How many times have we heard, "he was such a nice guy, everybody loved him?"

    Just a month or two ago a nearby town had two people get shot in the parking lot of a Red Lobster. The neighborhood is not a bad neighborhood. The place is pretty much surrounded by middle and upper middle class homes. It isn't exactly the type of place a person would usually worry about a shooting. Yet it happened.

    Since Red Lobster serves alcohol, in most states, a person could not carry legally.

    I agree with the saying that guns and alcohol don't mix. However, I don't believe that means a CCH permitee should be denied the right to go somewhere because alcohol is present. Being in a room with alcohol doesn't mean you are going to get a contact buzz. It doesn't mean that you suddenly become less responsible than you were for the many years before you got a CCH permit.

    There is a law that covers alcohol and CCH permits in NC. It says if you get caught with any alcohol in your system while carrying you get your permit yanked. You can also serve up to 12 months in jail. Since CCH permit holders, in NC, have proven that they aren't a felon, I think they can be trusted not to commit a felony now and put everybody at risk.

    CCH permit holders have been taught the law and proper escelation of force. You either trust them to use this knowledge properly or you don't.
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2010
  13. DasFriek

    DasFriek Member

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    I feel that CHL holders should be able to carry anyplace alcohol is present as long as they aren't drinking.
    But i also feel it increases the likley hood of having to use his weapon, Even if he is 100% dry. Maybe i grew up drinking in some not so not so great places.

    I will say one thing ever since i got my CHL over 1 year ago i would say ive had less than 5 drinks over the last year. I dont drink at home since i stay with my ailing parents and help take care of them and my mom is strongly against alcohol in her house, Except what i sneak in for cooking with. Chili MUST have good Pale Ale in it.

    I know its off subject but actually getting my permit has had a large impact on my drinking, And not because i felt a law said i cant. But because i just didn't want it.
     
  14. mbogo

    mbogo Member

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    If drinking and driving are bad, why do so many bars have parking lots?



    It's because RESPONSIBLE people know their limitations. No law will ever prevent an irresponsible person from hurting themselves or others.

    mbogo
     
  15. Yo Mama

    Yo Mama Member

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    No, I changed it for you: I feel that I should be able to carry anyplace alcohol is present as long as I aren't drinking.

    Now that's better see, you're not making a judgement about my life now. :)

    BTW, sorry to hear about your folks, and I hope for a bright future ahead for you.
     
  16. Double Naught Spy

    Double Naught Spy Sus Venator

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    I am completely fine with guns in bars. I am probably fine with not being allowed to drink if you are carrying. I rarely drink and have been a designated driver on more than one occasion and I can't see any reason why as a non-drinking patron that I should not be allowed to be armed simply because I am in a location where alcohol is served.

    Geez, now I can't go home, drive in my car, or be any other place for that matter.

    It worries me that so many gun owners think they are a target if they are disarmed. Even worse, many think they are defenseless if they are disarmed.
     
  17. SaxonPig

    SaxonPig Member

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    You can legally drive a car with a blood alcohol of .007 so why not carry a gun? When I lived in UT the law for packing matched that for driving. If you were legal to drive you were legal to carry. Sounds reasonable to me. Does one or two drinks make me OK to drive a car but too dangerous with a gun?
     
  18. heeler

    heeler Member

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    What Saxon brings up is a situation I face in Texas.
    The drunk standard here is .008.
    The book on CHL reads you cant be drunk and carry.
    But the CHL class I was in the instructor said even though that may be technically correct he claims it's up to the officers discretion as there is no legal limit on drinking and carrying.
    I drink at home and never go to bars and if I have consumed more than two drinks over a period of a couple of hours and have to leave home the pistol stays home because I dont want to get caught up in some legal BS.
     
  19. Cosmoline

    Cosmoline Member

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    People view alcohol differently. I've noticed a fair number of gun folks have a more traditional American relationship with alcohol. That is, they view it as something you use to get drunk. The people who think of alcoholic drinks as a food do tend to be on the left side of the spectrum due to socio-economic factors (they are more likely to live in large coastal cities, more likely to have advanced degrees, more likely to have drunk micro-brews instead of schlock stuff, etc.)

    So as a result it wouldn't surprise me if a majority of gun owners and people who carry are a bit fanatical when it comes to mixing guns and alcohol. I've seen that on threads even in this forum. Though I think attitudes are slowly changing as the old post-prohibition drinking culture dies off.
     
  20. Onward Allusion

    Onward Allusion Member

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    Carrying While Intoxicated don't mix. Hell, you could be having dinner in a bar and what - you can't be carrying???

     
  21. Mudinyeri

    Mudinyeri Member

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    Over the years, I've been in plenty of bars. In my younger days, I frequently got into some sort of fracas in those bars. Now that I'm in my late 40's I rarely find myself interested in going to a true bar (a place that serves little, if any, food but serves beer, wine and hard alcohol).

    My guess would be that if you looked at the statistical probability of getting into a fight of some sort the location with the highest probability would be bars. I have no empirical data to back this up, but I've never gotten into a fight at a church, library, hospital, grocery store ... you get the idea.

    So ... if the probability of getting into some sort of scrape is highest at a bar AND you want to avoid having to shoot someone ... what would the prudent person do?
     
  22. Gouranga

    Gouranga Member

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    I also feel that bad things tend to happen in places where "that type of thing never happens". Which is why i carry everywhere.

    I don't drink and drive, I don't drink and carry. Personally, I would not want my judgement to be called into question doing either because my BAC was over 0.0. A civil attorney will take you to the cleaners doing either should anything happen. I don't care if you protecting yourself from a blood soaked ax murderer who just killed a bus load of nuns.

    That's me though. Would i deny your right, well I would say, your right to carry while drinking would be something I would be on the fence with. I would not think anyone has 1 beer while carrying becomes a danger to society, the guy with 12 does, it is that huge gray area in between that I cannot make up my mind on. Though I will say this, if someone if able to legally drive a car, I cannot think they are too impaired to handle a firearm...
     
  23. VegasAR15

    VegasAR15 Member

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    Guess I'm just lucky in Nevada. I can be drunker with a gun than I can with a car. Drunk driving is .08, but I can be .1 while conceil carrying. Not that I would do that, but it does mean that I can go to a restaurant that serves alcohol with no problems.
     
  24. HOOfan_1

    HOOfan_1 Member

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    Ding ding ding....this meant no CCW even if you were just going to eat dinner with your family at Outback....or any other restaurant which sells alcohol...which is basically anything that isn't fast food...and even some that are.
     
  25. Guillermo

    Guillermo member

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    I concur...being intoxicated in public is illegal in most states so I really don't see the problem.

    No more laws...we have too many already.
     
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