Shocked By CCH Holders Yesterday

[MikeNice]

Hell, you could be having dinner in a bar and what - you can't be carrying???

Well in NC you could be having dinner at Pizza Hut (they serve beer) and not be able to carry. In many places it is any place that sells for consumption on premises.

So ... if the probability of getting into some sort of scrape is highest at a bar AND you want to avoid having to shoot someone ... what would the prudent person do?

Well, first you try to retreat if possible. Then you have to follow the proper escelation of force. Rude words and threatening gestures do not constitute the need for lethal force. So, you do what you would do any where else. Your ability to walk away is not hampered by being at a bar.

What most people are missing though is that this extends past bars. If you want to take the kids to a movie and dinner, you better go to Cracker Barell or McDonalds. Pizza Hut, Applebee's, TGI Friday, Fudrucker's, Red Robin, and most other establishment's serve beer as well as food. That means leaving your gun at home or in the car.

Why should a CCH permit holder be denied the right to be in a room where alcohol is present? Is it because of other people's actions? Why should the CCH holder's life time of good behavior be negated because of somebody else's lack of impulse control?

 

[General Geoff]

That's me though. Would i deny your right, well I would say, your right to carry while drinking would be something I would be on the fence with. I would not think anyone has 1 beer while carrying becomes a danger to society, the guy with 12 does, it is that huge gray area in between that I cannot make up my mind on. Though I will say this, if someone if able to legally drive a car, I cannot think they are too impaired to handle a firearm...

Here's the problem with comparing drunk driving to drunk carrying.

Driving is an inherently risky and dangerous activity which requires constant attention to prevent massive injury or death. Carrying is *not* inherently risky nor dangerous; shooting is, but anyone who regularly carries, knows that shooting is a last resort to protect life and limb from an adversary intent on serious bodily harm.

Carrying a gun is far closer to carrying car keys than actually driving. And while I've heard of people confiscating car keys before or during a night of expected drunkenness, I myself find that concept ridiculous.

 

[Sam1911]

Apparently you've missed the dozens of posts on this very forum by the teetotaling masses decry those who would even consider imbibing the devil's drink, gun or no gun.

Amen. We've all but come to blows over this on more than a few occasions. Real knock-down-drag-out threads going to many, many pages.

It is disappointing but it shouldn't be shocking.

In PA it has been legal to carry in bars -- and to drink while carrying (we have NO "intoxicated" limit associated with possessing a weapon -- though we do have a "Hunting While Intoxicated" charge...) -- for several decades.

No blood in the streets. No shootouts between otherwise law-abiding concealed firearms carriers who got in their cups and became raging killers.

It just doesn't happen.

This is one of those issues that simply must be true because everyone thinks it's true, and the fact that it isn't true really isn't all that important.

There's a great .sig line around here that says, "A conclusion is a convenient place to stop thinking."

In the case of "Guns and Booze don't mix!" I'd counter, "A popular truism is a convenient reason not to even START thinking."

 

[KBintheSLC]

The legal limit for guns should be the same as it is for cars. Afterall, far more people die as a result of the misuse of cars than from the misuse of guns. Yet ironically, almost every bar has a parking lot outside.

I say carry in the bar and have a beer if you want, but if you decide to really drink, just leave the gun at home. That is the law in UT and we never had much trouble with it in the 3 decades I lived there. It's called personal accountability... letting people be responsible for their own actions rather than having the law predetermine our every move.

 

[fireside44]

The legal limit for guns should be the same as it is for cars.

No, there should be no legal limit.

Why a gun owner would agree to more regulations against gun owners is beyond me, but just like some support parts of the GCA, these people are out there and damage the gun rights movement.

 

[Yo Mama]

It worries me that so many gun owners think they are a target if they are disarmed. Even worse, many think they are defenseless if they are disarmed.

I'm 145 pounds, and 6ft tall. That makes me a pretty skinny dude. I do feel less able to defend myself without a gun.

Why should it worry you that I think I'm a target, and have choosen to carry a gun?

We are all targets, if you are unarmed you are now a defenseless target.

 

[BHP FAN]

I don't drink, but I do go to Pizza Hut...So if I'm disarmed and get jumped in the parking lot what good has the stupid ''alcohol and guns don't mix'' crowd done me?

 

[Guillermo]

"A popular truism is a convenient reason not to even START thinking."

I am going to steal that one

 

[SuperNaut]

Generally I'm against special laws for stuff that is already illegal. Murder is illegal, therefore this "issue" is moot.

I know that there are people who believe that there is a magical number of laws that need to be written in order for people to behave; I don't understand those people, but I know they exist.

 

[kayak-man]

+1 General Geoff

 

[Freedom_fighter_in_IL]

No, there should be no legal limit.

Why a gun owner would agree to more regulations against gun owners is beyond me, but just like some support parts of the GCA, these people are out there and damage the gun rights movement

So you believe that it is all well and fine for Joe Blow to be staggering drunk and armed? Sorry but that is sheer stupidity period. My take on this is if you are going to drink ANYTHING don't carry. Same take for driving as well. Alcohol is a moral inhibitor as well as a physical inhibitor as well. I don't agree with the not able to carry in a bar/restaurant but I do full well believe in limiting alcohol and carry. Use simple logic, if you are going to drink, don't freaking carry a damn gun. I don't want my life nor that of my kids put in jeopardy because you "think" you are not intoxicated. I don't know how many idiots I see all the time staggering around "thinking" they are "fine" and just because you have been "trained" for your CCW does not in ANY way make you suddenly impervious to the affects of alcohol. I have been trained since I could walk on how to handle firearms and more than likely have better training than 99% of the common public and I STILL refuse to carry if I am drinking period. If you feel like you need to be armed to feel "protected" then make the choice to not drink! Sorry but if it comes to your "rights" verses the life of my child because your stupid drunk self couldn't hold proper aim then your rights can be damned.

 

[jeepguy]

its funny how people see things, here in ohio this bill is stalled. but uninformed people go off only hearing what they want to hear or fear. my dad who is a leo & pro carry didn't like it because he thought it ment bars & night clubs. i informed him that it was the right to carry in a resaurant that has a class d liquor license, olive garden, red lobster etc. and is more of a resaurant then bar. so if a couple want to go to dinner at the olive garden they can't carry & therefore give up their right to best defend themselves. i think this is ridicolus and has to be changed. regardless of where one stands on the issue of consumption these bills needs to pass. then we can debate the consumption issues around them, but people shouldn't become targets because they go out to eat.

 

[Sam1911]

So you believe that it is all well and fine for Joe Blow to be staggering drunk and armed? Sorry but that is sheer stupidity period.

Gonna need a few laws passed to keep us on the straight-and-narrow, eh? I like laws, they make me feel all warm and safe! ...

Seriously, though... we already have laws to make murder, homicide, unlawful discharge of a weapon, reckless endangerment, and any number of other bad acts illegal. Let's make a few more laws to make it illegal to ... er... not do those things but do other things that really aren't violent or harmful in any way but ... you know ... might lead to... badder stuff. Badder stuff that would already be completely unlawful but, hey, now we can lock people up for a few more things! Goody!

As I said before, we've got several decades for this problem to materialize here in PA where you can be drunk and armed and not violating our laws. You are obviously heavily invested in the idea that this is a socially untenable situation. Do you expect that we're going to see a rash of otherwise legally armed drunks killing folks sometime soon?

 

[Freedom_fighter_in_IL]

No Sam not "socially untenable" just flat out stupid period. You have obviously led a life to where you have not been exposed to the "problems" of alcohol. Ever wonder where the old saying "Ply her with drink" comes from? People will do things they "normally" would not do while not drinking. It is a VASTLY proven fact! I am glad PA has not suffered to date from this (though I highly doubt that it hasn't). I can not seem to understand how anyone with a single grain of common sense can't grasp the fact that carrying while drinking is sheer stupidity. I grew up with an alcoholic father and experienced first hand the effect that alcohol had on a "normally" peaceful well adjusted man. Jekyll and Hyde comes to mind. Granted not everyone is affected this way but you can not sit here and tell me that the vast majority of peoples judgement is not seriously impaired by alcohol.

A simple easy fix is to have a law set up to make it illegal to carry while drinking. No law will make the unlawful suddenly do right no, BUT it will make a law abiding citizen keep from making a stupid mistake while drinking. It will make them think, "ok I am going to be drinking tonight so I won't carry" thereby they won't be in the position of making a possibly life changing mistake because they drank a little more than they thought and it affected them a little more than they thought it would and made a deadly mistake! You may not agree with this line of thinking and I really don't care if you do. But again I will say it, Alcohol and carrying a firearm is ignorant period and there is no reason that a law limiting this stupidity shouldn't be enacted.

Again I will say that I do feel carrying in an establishment that serves would be all well and fine as long as that individual is not drinking.

 

[Sam1911]

It is a VASTLY proven fact! I am glad PA has not suffered to date from this (though I highly doubt that it hasn't).

So show me. Where are there even CALLS FROM THE OPPOSITION for this to be an issue here? Surely if this is a problem worthy of specific laws against it, our opposition which hates gun rights to begin with, must have this at the very TOP of their agenda, right? After all, it would be so easy to prove the social harm begin done every day... right?

"Alcohol and carrying a firearm may very well be ignorant for you but there is no reason that a law limiting this stupidity needs to be enacted."

...as long as that individual is not drinking

So if I'm sitting in a restaurant with my family having a beer with dinner, I should be a criminal? Punish all because of the bad behavior of a few. Where have I heard that before?

 

[M-Cameron]

why is it that you people are assuming that just because you are in a bar having a drink....that you are somehow going to end up a drunken mess......

honestly.....if you are the type of person that drinks to get drunk........you probably arent mature enough to have a concealed weapon......

 

[Double Naught Spy]

What Saxon brings up is a situation I face in Texas.
The drunk standard here is .008.
The book on CHL reads you cant be drunk and carry.
But the CHL class I was in the instructor said even though that may be technically correct he claims it's up to the officers discretion as there is no legal limit on drinking and carrying.
I drink at home and never go to bars and if I have consumed more than two drinks over a period of a couple of hours and have to leave home the pistol stays home because I dont want to get caught up in some legal BS.

heeler, you might wish to review the law a little closer. It does not say you can't carry if you are drunk.

Texas Penal Code
Sec. 46.035. UNLAWFUL CARRYING OF HANDGUN BY LICENSE HOLDER

(d) A license holder commits an offense if, while intoxicated, the license holder carries a handgun under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, regardless of whether the handgun is concealed.

The word is "intoxicated." What does intoxicated mean?

"Intoxication" under Texas law means:

(A) not having the normal use of [one’s] mental faculties by reason of the introduction of alcohol, a controlled substance, a drug, a dangerous drug, a combination of two or more of those substances, or any other substance into the body; or
(B) not having the normal use of [one’s] physical faculties by reason of the introduction of alcohol, a controlled substance, a drug, a dangerous drug, a combination of two or more of those substances, or any other substance into the body; or

(C) [a person] having an alcohol concentration of 0.08 or more.

It should be noted, that theoretically the prosecutor only needs to prove one of the three ways in order to obtain a conviction. For example, if the jury believes the person has lost their physical faculties, although they have not lost their mental faculties and there is no blood or breath test, theoretically that person could be found guilty. That is not always the case, generally, if the evidence only shows the loss of either the mental or physical faculties, and not both, there is usually a logical explanation for that loss and the result should be they are not intoxicated.

So being "drunk" would disqualify you from carrying, but you likely would be disqualified from carrying long before you are actually drunk.

 

[Coolbreeze8804]

Wow. really?
1. I am licensed to carry a concealed weapon. (training)
2. I've been an adult aged legal drinker for many decades. (maturity)
3. I have never shot anybody that didn't need shooting. (ex-military ) (Values and respect for life and law)
4. I have never drunk enough to cause me to do something stupid. (common sense)
5. I have never done something stupid with a gun., drinking or not. (more common sense)
6. I am still a free, registered voter, citizen of America. Aren't I allowed to go about my life in an unfettered manner as long as I don't trample on the rights of others and behave within the accepted mores of society? (the benefits reaped of serving my nation)

Why is someone legislating rules based on the fact that I "might" act like an idiot if I am allowed to defend myself while engaged in adult activities? (Reasonable and legal drinking) The whole theory lacks logic. The assumption should be:
If you are an adult, act like it.
If you can't act like it, you should be removed from society because you simply don't fit in.

end of rant... sorry...

 

[VinnAY]

I think most of you miss the point, you probably right state what YOU think about it and how YOU feel/think/whatever about the subject of guns and alcohol. But problem is, for everyone 1 of us there's XX of ID10T's out there that can't act responsibly.
Me personally I love to drink, I do it at home or at close friends homes in small groups...it's safe. For me. And I love guns. (Obviously). Drinking and driving don't mix, we have laws because people are just plain stupid and as a society we think that we should have laws so Darwin can be impeded in removing them from the population. Drinking and guns don't mix either. Everyone of us responsible people knows this. I could post a picture of me firing a gun with my R hand, and a beer in the L and I'd get not only flamed, but napalmed off the forum.
So I can't fathom why anyone thinks that a gun in a bar should be a lawful thing. I just can't get there.
I think too many folks hear anything resembling gun restrictions or gun control and just stop thinking and only react.

 

[Coolbreeze8804]

Nah, I'm just a misty eyed idealist who thinks we should be responsible for our own ACTIONS, and pay the price for any and all misrecreance. I don't want to have to limit my proper, legal, and safe behaviour because of someone elses poor, unsafe behaviour. I think THEIR poor behaviour should be eliminated, not MY appropriate behaviour limited.

And yes, I know it's not resonable to expect, but it really is what I want to happen. I just haven't figured out how to arrange it yet. (Rest assured, when I get it sussed out, i'll share it with everybody!)

 

[REAPER4206969]

A simple easy fix is to have a law set up to make it illegal to carry while drinking. No law will make the unlawful suddenly do right no, BUT it will make a law abiding citizen keep from making a stupid mistake while drinking.

It will make them think, "ok I am going to be drinking tonight so I won't carry" thereby they won't be in the position of making a possibly life changing mistake because they drank a little more than they thought and it affected them a little more than they thought it would and made a deadly mistake!

In many states it's perfectly legal to consume alcohol while carrying. Post one news story where a CCWer caused murder and mayhem because of drinking while carrying.

 

[Freedom_fighter_in_IL]

In many states it's perfectly legal to consume alcohol while carrying. Post one news story where a CCWer caused murder and mayhem because of drinking while carrying.

How about you simply google the term "Statistics for CCW carriers firing while intoxicated". I for one am not sure that there are actual "studies" on this subject but I did find a site where such news stories are posted. Granted it is the dreaded Brady Bunch, but there are MANY instances of this idiocy posted on it. It seems that it is NOT an uncommon thing to happen and only hardens my stand on this subject.

Reaper, fact is there are too damn many news stories on it to pick just one my friend. Simple fact is, if you are drinking, don't carry a damn gun. As I stated already, Having that CCW does not make you impervious to the affects of alcohol. I see cops do retarded things (off duty) while drinking and they have much more "training" than your average CCW carrier. Had one, several years ago, draw down on a bouncer friend of mine because he was throwing his drunken, beligerant friend out for feeling up a ladies boobs. Fortunately I was right beside the moron and was able to disarm the fool before he pulled the trigger. They were both 3 sheets full sail hammered. You want to tell me that this should be allowed? Like Vinnay said, Some of you guys see anything that even remotely smells like any form of gun control and your brain instantly freezes and allows no form of rational intelligent thought to pass through it. I've seen way too many fools drinking to feel this should be a good idea. Sorry but I enjoy my life and the life of my children to care to damn much weather or not YOU feel all butthurt because an INTELLIGENT law requiring you to disarm while drinking should be enacted. Carry anywhere you wish, don't mind that at all, fully agree with it, but do NOT carry while under the influence of anything. My life and the life of my children thank you for making an intelligent choice.

 

[longhair75]

I agree with our friend Freedom_fighter_in_IL

I know when my judgment is impaired. I know when I have had too much to drink. To be perfectly honest about this, it is a real good thing that I am not on the road carrying my handgun right now.

Bottom line: Alcohol and firearms do not mix, nor should they.

 

[lwknight]

Regarding my earlier comment : " If its a rough enough bar that you feel the need to be armed, you might not should be there in the first place"

We were not talking about guns and "UH" drink as in liken to dinner at Applebies.
You do not have much choice as to which road you take home or to the store and you should feel safe to shop whatever store you choose.

The OPs' allusion was to going out drinking. There are places where you double check to be sure you have your gun. Those are the places where you had best stay out of and doubly should not be drinking there. You know the type. Little purple barn looking place behind the truck stop on I-10. A stranger might get out with his skin if he is not drinking and getting roudy.

Now if you go there to get your daughter away from her boyfriend or you are a LEO , then you sure had better not be unarmed but you sure had best not be drinking either.

 

[84B20]

I've got a question. What do most LEO's do with their firearms after shift if they go to a bar (rhetorical)? Do they not drink or leave the gun in their car? If they do carry in bars, they must be super human to resist using it after a few drinks. I guess the rest of us just can't be trusted.