Shocked By CCH Holders Yesterday

[ForumSurfer]

I'm also all for supporting freedoms but your rights stop when they can affect other people. Its not your right to get drunk and plow your truck into my car; its also not your right to get drunk next to me while carrying a gun.

It is also my right to go and shoot on my own property. Other people do the same thing, but not safely. This sends the occasional round onto someone's property and endangers them. So should it also be illegal to shoot on my own property? It is my right to do so, but I can easily be careless and shoot in a different direction and endanger a housing development a mile away.

You can take any argument to the extreme, but let me spell it out. Don't go into seedy biker/gang banger bars. The kind of places where you sit with your back to the wall, every city has at least a couple seedy bars.

Yep, they do have seedy bars. I can agree that you enter those places at your own risk. There is a flip-side in that one of the most upscale bar in my town has had a murder in the parking lot. One of the most upscale restaurants in my town has had guy commit a shooting spree that resulted in several deaths. Either of these could have been stopped had someone been legally carrying. But since the knee jerk reaction is to ban responsible carrying if there is any alcohol being consumed, no one was.

 

[wheelgunslinger]

I don't see why this extra law is needed.
If you shoot someone, it's assault with a deadly weapon, attempted murder, or murder. Or whatever.

So, you stack some misdemeanor on top of murder or multiple other felonies. What for?


It's already unlawful to do the acts everyone seems to think that people convulsively do when they drink and have a firearm.

 

[ForumSurfer]

I don't see why this extra law is needed.
If you shoot someone, it's assault with a deadly weapon, attempted murder, or murder. Or whatever.

So, you stack some misdemeanor on top of murder or multiple other felonies. What for?


It's already unlawful to do the acts everyone seems to think that people convulsively do when they drink and have a firearm.

Couldn't agree more. To me, it seems like the same line of reasoning leads people to believe that "gun free zones" will keep the criminals unarmed.

After being forced to leave my gun somewhere whenever I go to a nice restaurant, simply because 99.999% of nice restaurants serve alcohol...I see these laws as nothing more than victim disarmament.

 

[Sam1911]

Somehow I don't think I'm going to need my 1911 to fend off the accountant or attorney next to me as a sip my drink at a nice bar. Contrary to popular belief violent criminals are not hiding in every shadow waiting to attack. We live in a very safe country if you practice a bit of common sense.

This is an embarassing example of the same false logic that gets us all gun control laws to begin with. So your bar is safe? And you don't need your gun? Great. Why don't we all just stay in the "safe" places? We can obviously identify them so easily. I'm sure you don't really believe that, and yes, I'm teasing you to make my point.

I thought alcohol ingestion brought about random violent and irrational behavior? Therefore NO bar is safe! Unlike the rest of the world ... which also is not "safe" regardless of what you might assume as you wander through in "conditon white."

How 'bout your drive (or walk) there? Is the parking lot safe? Is your route safe? Is it o.k. to leave your gun in the car? What if you're attacked in the parking lot on your way back to the vehicle? Or did you give up your right to fight (effectively) for your life when you took a sip of beer?

This arguement is too easily destroyed ... and yet otherwise rational folks pick it off the ash heap, tape over the holes, and hoist it again over and over.

 

[Hatterasguy]

Your twisting my argument. Sitting next to me at a bar and getting sloshed while having a Glock in your belt isn't all that much different than jumping in your truck and driving home afterwords. Sure it might be fine, but eventually its going to catch up to you.

And as the person who is going to have to dodge the truck and or bullets when it does go bad I don't really want to.

 

[ForumSurfer]

Somehow I don't think I'm going to need my 1911 to fend off the accountant or attorney next to me as a sip my drink at a nice bar. Contrary to popular belief violent criminals are not hiding in every shadow waiting to attack. We live in a very safe country if you practice a bit of common sense.

http://www.nytimes.com/1993/08/08/u...urts-6-in-a-restaurant-in-north-carolina.html

That isn't exactly a black tie kind of place, but it is nice and they have jazz bands that play and wine tasting nights...far from a seedy bikee bar. (edit:: although I have been to a biker bar or two that I felt perfectly safe in)

These type of events are the very reason we carry and support the RKBA. Disarming us simply because someone may be consuming alcohol sold on the premises just creates a room full of victims.

 

[Sam1911]

Your twisting my argument. Sitting next to me at a bar and getting sloshed while having a Glock in your belt isn't all that much different than jumping in your truck and driving home afterwords. Sure it might be fine, but eventually its going to catch up to you.

You twisted your own argument! That's what makes this so much fun!

You said "right to get drunk and plow your truck into my car" and "right to get drunk next to me while carrying a gun." One is a violent, deadly event. The other is ... well, not.

Others have explained here very well why driving a car and carrying a gun are not the same and don't carry equal levels of risk to others. (Hint: "carrying" not "shooting.")

 

[Hatterasguy]

No the argument is quite sound, alcohol impairs judgment, period. You can't argue that, you can argue how much, which you can track based on body weight and a few other factors.

Also I don't CC, I don't feel we live in a dangerous country and I have never regretted my decision. Having said that I don't really care if others do, its not my business. I feel perfectly safe driving to a bar, walking in and getting a drink. Now their are some 3rd world bars in Bridgeport, CT that I wouldn't feel safe in without half a dozen body guards carrying MP5's, but I don't make it a habit of putting myself in high risk situations.


As I have said before if your not drinking that's fine bring your gun into the bar, I don't really care. But if your going to pound down a six pack and get a good buzz going that's cool, leave the Glock at home. Even when I'm at home I won't handle my firearms after a few drinks.


Lastly if you live in a rural part of the country things are a bit different than where I live. More built up areas have more crime related problems, which is just the nature of the beast. More people=more crime.

 

[Hatterasguy]

http://www.wtnh.com/dpp/news/new_haven_cty/shots-ring-out-in-downtown-new-haven
This just happened a few weeks ago where I usually drink, mostly high end bars and clubs around it, ghetto a few streets over.

 

[CoRoMo]

...having a Glock in your belt ... driving home...

You're saying that these two things are similar, when one is intoxicated. But that is just silly. They would also have to be similar, when one is totally sober. Like Sam said, one is relatively dangerous, sober or not, and the other isn't.

Of course if you believe that having a holstered gun on your belt, is inherently dangerous, the anti crowd would totally agree with you. It's one of their silly and incoherent notions.

 

[Hatterasguy]

I believe that operating machinery while impaired is dangerous, having a gun on you counts as operating machinery. Correct in a holster its not operating its sitting their, what happens when you need to use it?

Cars and guns are both dangerous, although I would argue cars are slightly more so since I'm pretty sure more people die every year in auto accidents.

 

[ForumSurfer]

Lastly if you live in a rural part of the country things are a bit different than where I live. More built up areas have more crime related problems, which is just the nature of the beast. More people=more crime.

Exactly, so we should all pack up and move out in the country or to the outer banks.

Wait, people have been trying to escape urban sprawl. That's why what was once miles of farmland next to my family's farmland is now littered with housing developments. Urban sprawl, she comes. Why not ccw just in case?

As I have said before if your not drinking that's fine bring your gun into the bar, I don't really care.

I have no further arguments with you. Drinking and packing is a debate that I don't feel strongly enough about to debate. But stripping my right to bear arms simply because I have the potential to drink in an establishment really ticks me off.

 

[CoRoMo]

...I don't feel we live in a dangerous country ... their are some 3rd world bars in Bridgeport, CT that I wouldn't feel safe in...

...having a gun on you counts as operating machinery. ... in a holster its not operating its sitting their...

You really need to get a better grasp of what you are saying. You conflict one statement with the next. It isn't making a bit of sense. Try and proofread what you write before you hit the POST button.

 

[Sam1911]

having a gun on you counts as operating machinery

No it doesn't. It is absurd to say so. Having a gun on you is the equivalent to having your car keys in your pocket.

 

[unloved]

Lastly if you live in a rural part of the country things are a bit different than where I live.

I live in the Philadelphia metro area. It's perfectly legal for me, or any other lawfully armed person, to enter a bar while armed, and to drink as much as we choose. As Sam1911 has pointed out over, and over again, it just isn't a problem.

 

[JohnBT]

The Outer Banks is more crowded than most suburbs. I remember it from the '60s when it wasn't. You know, when there wasn't a grocery store or a 7-11, much less a bunch of Food Lions.


"Contrary to popular belief violent criminals are not hiding in every shadow waiting to attack."

Never lived in Richmond have you? You need to get out more. I grew up in Baltimore and D.C. fwiw, so I'm not city-phobic at all, but crime stats are real.

 

[wheelgunslinger]

I still don't get how more law on top of existing law is going to stop or prevent anything. :banghead:

People carry in bars every day (see previous posts here) and don't lose their minds.

It's like some kind of DARE program brainwashing up in here when this subject is broached.

 

[Sam1911]

what happens when you need to use it?

Congratulations! "Houston, we have enlightenment!"

When you NEED to use it -- it ISN'T there. And (understanding that one does not NEED a gun unless one has a life or death reason to SHOOT someone) that means, drunk, tipsy, buzzed, just a bit happy, or stone cold sober, you're going to DIE.

Yeah...I might not be as good a shot after a few beers as I am completely alcohol free. But I didn't sign away my right to fight for my life when I took a sip of alcohol.

I may have a hard time with the DA later -- but I'll stand a better chance of being alive sitting on the witness stand.

 

[lwknight]

It seems that most everyone is missing everyone elses point and even perverting statements into what they were not intended.

So for those who think they have the answer. Lets hear it!!
If you are given the authority to write the law exactly how you want it.
What will it state?

I say that if someone gets drunk and acts stupid with a gun that we drag them out back and stomp the doggie poo out of them. No laws made or broken.

 

[KodiakBeer]

Here's a story from today's paper: http://www.adn.com/2010/10/06/1488835/man-kills-self-after-shooting.html

Three people get drunk in bar. Argument breaks out on the way home. One dead, one critically wounded.

Did the fact that it is illegal to be carrying while drunk, prevent the shooting? Did the fact that it is illegal to shoot somebody prevent the shooting?

 

[One-Time]

I do not drink, but I do go to bars for the food and friends, and I want to be able to carry there as well

 

[skipbadger]

Somehow I don't think I'm going to need my 1911 to fend off the accountant or attorney next to me as a sip my drink at a nice bar. Contrary to popular belief violent criminals are not hiding in every shadow waiting to attack. We live in a very safe country if you practice a bit of common sense.

Common sense tells me that nothing bad would ever happen in my upper middle class neighborhood in North Carolina. Yet folks two blocks away were followed home from their store one night after they closed it, then kidnapped at gunpoint, and thrown in the trunk of the kidnappers car to head back to the store to rob it. Luckily the kidnappers were really stupid and didn't take the cell phones from the victims. Cops were waiting at the store.

I carry because common sense tells me that bad things happen to good people at all hours of the day, in all kinds of places. Very few victims of violent crimes that live ever say, "Frankly, I was kind of expecting it".

And no, you wouldn't need your 1911 to fight off the accountant. The attorney is another matter altogether.

 

[fireside44]

So you believe that it is all well and fine for Joe Blow to be staggering drunk and armed?

Yes, actually I do. If he is so inebriated he can't get off the couch, I don't have much to worry about in terms of being shot with a gun. In fact, I could probably peel said drunk for his piece and he would never know where his cherished Glock disappeared to.

Ever wonder where the old saying "Ply her with drink" comes from?

Yes, more or less sober men who lack moral responsibility.

I don't want my life nor that of my kids put in jeopardy because you "think" you are not intoxicated.

Out of the thousands of times I have enjoyed a beer or whiskey or five with a gun within easy reach, no one has been shot, threatened, or even had their feelings hurt. In fact, I'd go so far as to say a CCW holder drinking beer while armed is a heck of a lot more trustworthy than a non CCW holder drinking beer while unarmed.

To be honest, the only time I have ever had trouble with drunks is when they weren't armed, therefore, my experience tells me the most dangerous drunks don't carry weapons when consuming alcohol and so I am most cautious when dealing with those irresponsible citizens who drink without having a weapon on them.

I have been trained since I could walk on how to handle firearms and more than likely have better training than 99% of the common public and I STILL refuse to carry if I am drinking period.

Good for you. If you don't feel safe carrying while drinking then you shouldn't. Other people don't have your level of paranoia and are more comfortable having a holstered weapon on them while consuming a beverage.

If you feel like you need to be armed to feel "protected" then make the choice to not drink!

So in other words, an alcoholic ought to forfeit his right to SD because of a drinking problem? Should he be able to carry a knife while drinking? A baseball bat? The same foolish arguments could be made for prohibitions against having a folding knife in your pocket while drunk. You might cut yourself or someone else.

Sorry but if it comes to your "rights" verses the life of my child because your stupid drunk self couldn't hold proper aim then your rights can be damned.

You pretty much let the cat out of the bag with that one. In other words, you will sacrifice freedom for your own personal security.

 

[Ian Sean]

I live in the Philadelphia metro area. It's perfectly legal for me, or any other lawfully armed person, to enter a bar while armed, and to drink as much as we choose. As Sam1911 has pointed out over, and over again, it just isn't a problem.

Isn't PA beautiful!, all you have to do is look at the states that do allow it, you find out it is not an issue. Legal or not, if a person is irresponsible or a criminal, it doesn't matter one iota if it against the law or not.

It is always the same thing, a state looks at relaxing a law, all of a sudden it is going to be the "Wild West" or whatever strawmant argument fits the bill.

 

[WoofersInc]

I think my biggest issue with these discussions is this. Most of you automatically assume that just because I have walked into a bar I am going to get falling down drunk. I know myself and what constitutes under the influence for me. 1 or 2 drinks over a couple of hours does not make me intoxicated.

I am a nurse. If I get any type of criminal arrest (such as a DUI) I lose my nursing liscense. Because of this, I know my limits. I don't want to lose my job. However, I also don't want to lose my life. Having one beer with dinner should not make me incapable of defending myself. Fortunately I live in Nevada. The law says I can be as high as .10 before I am legally not able to carry. And like Sam1911 has pointed out abot PA., there is not an issue with shoot outs and CCW's going crazy and shooting places up. I have yet to hear about it happening. You know that if it did the anti's would be making a big issue over it.

Face it. those of us that have a CCW are the type that usually have common sense and know how to use it. It amazes me how that common sense seems to disappear when this topic comes up. Zero tolerance rears it's head and the name calling begins shortly after that.