Shocking ammo test results

[ontarget]

I have been wanting to get in the longer range game lately and have posted a couple of threads here asking about different rifles and such. A few of you recommended that I use the Howa that I already have. That sounded like a good idea so I purchased some premium factory ammo to test. The rifle is a Howa Mini Action in .223. Here is what I found so far.
I fired a 5 shot group of cheap 55gn fmj to foul the bore. It measured just over an inch. I then fired a 5 shot group of Hornady 73gn ELD that measured 1.80 inches. Odd I thought no flyers just a very open group. So I fired 5 more and it was 2.25 inches. Now I was beginning to think i should take up knitting and sell my guns. So I load up 5 Federal Gold Medal Match 73gn Berger HPBT and fire another group. This one is 0.667 inches. Ok I'm keeping my guns. Load up 5 more Federals. 0.74 inches. 5 more 0.480 inches. 5 more 0.550 inches. I thought maybe the bore was getting better so I load up 5 more of the Hornady. 2.600 inches. 5 more 2.76 inches. This rifle obviously doesn't like the Hornady load, but is this big of a difference normal? Both loads are premium match ammo of the same bullet weight. The Hornady is a polymer tip the Federal is a Berger HPBT. I was just surprised by such a big difference. Also what other factory loads would you folks recommend?

 

[LoonWulf]

The Eld load seems to have just hit a sweet spot for sucky in your rifle.
I've seen that with factory loads. With well crafted handloads it's usually not as dramatic.

Oh what's your rifles twist rate? Those 73s maybe edging it's ability to stabilize.

Might try some of the 69gr offering s

 

[HB]

“Match ammo” is a marketing term. There is no way to know how a load will shoot until you put it on paper.

 

[Legionnaire]

Yes, twist rate was my first question, too. May not be fast enough for the Hornadys.

Edit: Research on the interwebs suggests the Howa may be 1:9 twist. I'd think the 73 ELDs would do better 1:8 or even 1:7. In fact, I'm surprised the Federal 73s did so well. I'd try some 69 gr pills, like the Federal GMM 69 grain Sierras.

 

[jmorris]

Some time ago a 1:14 twist .223 bolt gun would be common and wouldn’t like the long heavy bullets but the Howa should be 1:9 and more likely to stabilize them.

Your results tell you wat to do though. Test different things and find wat works best. You are on the right track.

As for “what loads” that would depend on what you intend to do with them. If it’s just to see how it shoots, you have tried heavies, what about 35 grain loads on the other end of the spectrum?

 

[Bushpilot]

This rifle obviously doesn't like the Hornady load, but is this big of a difference normal?

I then fired a 5 shot group of Hornady 73gn ELD that measured 1.80 inches. Odd I thought no flyers just a very open group. So I fired 5 more and it was 2.25 inches.

I think it's pretty normal when your dealing with bullet stabilization issues.. Did you notice any yawing bullet holes in your target. They don't always leave the obvious oblong hole. Sometimes it's more subtle like simply more tearing of the paper on one side or more bullet rub marks on one side...

Something else to keep in mind, VLD and ELD bullets are longer and require more revolutions per second or RPS to stabilize then non VLD/ELD bullets. Boat tail bullets in general are longer for a given bullet weight and likewise require more RPS to stabilize than a flat base bullet but VLD/ELD bullets take this to an extreme. While heavy VLD/ELD bullets are the current rage, if I'm shooting for group size at 300 yards or less I don't want them... There are always compromises in every bullet design and I don't care for the trade-offs with VLD/ELDs, at least not at moderate ranges....

 

[I6turbo]

Not surprising to me. I've found my 1:12 .223s to perform within the range of .3 MOA to 1.7+ MOA depending upon the ammo. The ammo in these tests were 6 versions ranging from 55 grain FMJ (nothing heavier than that) down to 40 grain V-MAX, various types of bullets. Three different versions of Black Hills, Hornady Varmint Express, Fiocchi Extrema, and GECO Target. Most of the higher priced stuff performed worse than the very affordable GECO Target.

My .308 Varmint is just the opposite. Of the 5 different ammo versions I've tried, including two hunting rounds, it shoots well under MOA with all of them at 100 yards, essentially every group. It's the most accurate factory rifle I've ever owned (out of many).

 

[CapnMac]

I've seen that much variation in ammo across a number of rifles, a multitude of ammo.

Only "rule" I've found to (generally) hold true is that "price is no indicator of anything but price." I've seen arms that just loved expensive ammo, others that loathed it. Each arm seems to have its own sweet spot. And, you have to keep verifying that the ammo that was great once is still great.

Which is annoying.

But, it's also a reason to go out and shoot.

And a crummy day at the range beats the best day anywhere else []

 

[Poper]

I've seen that much variation in ammo across a number of rifles, a multitude of ammo.

Only "rule" I've found to (generally) hold true is that "price is no indicator of anything but price." I've seen arms that just loved expensive ammo, others that loathed it. Each arm seems to have its own sweet spot. And, you have to keep verifying that the ammo that was great once is still great.

Which is annoying.

But, it's also a reason to go out and shoot.

And a crummy day at the range beats the best day anywhere else []

Agreed, CapnMac.

And when you find the ammo your rifle prefers and you want to use, buy as much of that lot number you can afford. The next lot probably will not shoot as well.

 

[WestKentucky]

Like the military marksmanship guys, when you find a particular load that your rifle likes, you find as much of it as you can, and you make sure it's from the same lot. Different runs of the same darned thing can produce wildly different results. I think it's part of the deal where they switch setups on a line to run other ammo, then don't tweak it back identical for the next run. That's why cheap ammo is often "better" because they set it up and run the line til the cows come home, no changes, very little variation.

 

[J-Bar]

Each firearm is a snowflake, unique unto itself.

How lucky you are to have found ammo your rifle likes!

 

[ontarget]

My goal here was to shoot some premium stuff to get a baseline before I begin reloading for this rifle. With the Federal ammo it turned in some very impressive groups considering the guy behind the rifle. It has been 25 years since I did any serious target work. This rifle is a 1:8 twist.

 

[ontarget]

The Eld load seems to have just hit a sweet spot for sucky in your rifle.
I've seen that with factory loads. With well crafted handloads it's usually not as dramatic.

Oh what's your rifles twist rate? Those 73s maybe edging it's ability to stabilize.

Might try some of the 69gr offering s

This one is 1:8 twist

 

[LoonWulf]

should be plenty for 73s, looks like it was just a bad combo for that gun.


The Federal match ammo looks good tho, so id probably use that as my basis for expectations going forward with handloads.
Those berger 73s arnt as pointy or as long as the eldxs, that might have something to do with it. The jump could be an issue.

 

[69Precision]

“Match ammo” is a marketing term. There is no way to know how a load will shoot until you put it on paper.

In the case of federal gmm, that’s not true. It’s not guaranteed to shoot the best in any given rifle of course, but it has the reputation it does for a reason.

 

[Curtism1]

My AR with a 20" 1-8 White Oak Armament barrel does not like Hornady ELDs and shoots similar group sizes that you are getting. The barrel does great with Hornady 75gr HPBT and 77gr SMKs.

 

[ontarget]

My AR with a 20" 1-8 White Oak Armament barrel does not like Hornady ELDs and shoots similar group sizes that you are getting. The barrel does great with Hornady 75gr HPBT and 77gr SMKs.

The 75gn HPBTs from Hornady is one of the bullets I bought to hand load. I'm hoping for good results with those. @LoonWulf mentioned the jump to the rifling so being that the Bergers grouped so well I think I will try to mimick that with the Hornady handloads when I load them.

 

[Gtscotty]

I'll jump on the "each rifle has its own load preferences" wagon, but add that my 18" 8-twist SPR type AR didn't really care for the 73gr ELDs either. 69gr Nosler hpbt and Hornady 75gr hpbt, on the other hand, both shoot quite well in that rifle and seem to be safe bets in most accurate 7-9 twist 5.56 rifles.

 

[someguy2800]

In my limited experience with the hornady ELD bullets I have found them to be sensitive little buggers. You have to find just the right combo for them to work. The 75 BTHP are very forgiving and shoot well at mag length with a variety of powder and charge weight combo's.

 

[Bushpilot]

[1/8]should be plenty for 73s, [Hornady 73gn ELD] looks like it was just a bad combo for that gun.

Remember that the longer a bullet is the more rate of twist is required to stabilize it if the velocity remains constant. Bullet weight usually coincides with length but not always. If you pulled a bullet out of each of those loads i'd bet those 73gr ELDs are noticably longer than the 75 gr BTHP's. Those ELD's have a short shank and a very long, tapered ogive and boat tail. Much more tapered then regular BTHP's.

 

[HB]

*also the ELD thing is a marketing ploy. A 223 doesnt move fast enough to melt the plastic tip that supposedly made the AMAX inaccurate at extended range.

 

[ontarget]

Remember that the longer a bullet is the more rate of twist is required to stabilize it if the velocity remains constant. Bullet weight usually coincides with length but not always. If you pulled a bullet out of each of those loads i'd bet those 73gr ELDs are noticably longer than the 75 gr BTHP's. Those ELD's have a short shank and a very long, tapered ogive and boat tail. Much more tapered then regular BTHP's.

I definitely noticed the longer taper. That probably produces a longer jump to the rifling if seated to the same COAL. That could explain the wide gap in the group sizes.

 

[Bushpilot]

I definitely noticed the longer taper. That probably produces a longer jump to the rifling if seated to the same COAL. That could explain the wide gap in the group sizes.

True, that longer jump to the rifling can have a negative impact on accuracy. However, there are lots of rifles out there that have a long lead or throat from the factory that still shoot very tight groups.

It's been my experience, and yours may differ I'm just sharing mine, that while seating a bullet closer to the rifling does tend to tighten groups size, the effect usually isn't an overly dramatic improvement. In other words, rifles don't typically go from shooting great to poor or from poor to great with changes in bullet depth alone... When groups sizes vary from .5 with one load and bullet to 2.76 with another there is usually more going on there than just bullet jump....

 

[ontarget]

True, that's why I tried the Hornady load again after the much better groups with the Federal. I just couldn't believe the difference. Next I will try some different bullet weights in other premium factory loads to see how they do.

 

[RAT807]

Why not take 5 rounds from each factory box and measure the length from case base to bullet ogive, pull the bullets on these 5 rounds. Weigh the power and get an average. Weigh the cases, roll them on a flat surface / check for runout. Weight the bullets and measure bearing surface. Next I remove the decapping pin and run these 5 cases through a sizing die to just resize the necks, if the runout is over .003, you may want to size the brass a bit more to decrease runout. Now load these 5 with the same powder charge (average), seat the bullets to the ogive measurement average from earlier. These rounds should group better than the others you did not fine tune. You will see which factory has better quality controls...

I have even replace flat based bullets with boat tail bullets ( much better quality ) just for comparison. So far the biggest reason I have found that hinders factory ammo from shooting pretty good is the brass. Ex I spent $50 on a box of Winchester 264 mag 140 power point. I could not find components to load my on so had to buy factory rounds. A quick roll on the bench reveals a lot of wobble / runout. The worst was .022! Total junk. I couldn't bring myself to shoot $50 worth of junk! So, I pulled 15 bullets and made up 3 different 5 shot groups. No big surprise, the 5 untouched shot terrible. The best group had the most brass prep.

I had to do the same with an 8mm Mauser and 6.5 Jap. There is a lot you can learn by reverse engineering ammo from different manufacturers.