Quantcast
  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Shooting last night may test castle doctrine law

Discussion in 'Legal' started by KentuckyBlue, Apr 30, 2008.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. KentuckyBlue

    KentuckyBlue Member

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2008
    Messages:
    48
    There was a fatal shooting yesterday not too far from where I live. Early reports say that the victim and his roommate had been out drinking and got home around 3:00 a.m. Roommate went inside and went to bed; victim elected to stay in his vehicle and fell asleep. Around 6:00 a.m. the victim awoke and speculation is that he went to the wrong house and was kicking on the door. The resident fired one shot through the door and into the chest of the victim, who died later at the hospital. No charges have been filed as of now and the DA is investigating applicability of the new law which protects homeowners who use deadly force against intruders. It will be interesting to follow this as it may serve to answer many questions and clarify how law enforcement intends to apply the provisions of this law. Toxicology reports may well play some role in the decision in this case. Those reports won't be back for approximately three months. Go figure! Grissom on CSI does a much better job than that!!!
     
  2. p2000sk

    p2000sk Member

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2007
    Messages:
    358
    Remember the days when it was safe to go kick any door you wanted?
     
  3. TS537

    TS537 Member

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2008
    Messages:
    68
    Location:
    Louisiana
    I'm sorry, that's just irresponsible--if you're going to use deadly force, you at least have to be sure you're not shooting some drunk college kid at the wrong house or the previous resident who has Alzheimer's and has forgotten where he lives. Most people who mean you no harm and accidentally come into your house are going to turn around and flee when they see you in your tighty-whities with a gun--it's a real good way to determine intent. Just make sure they mop up what they leave on your doormat before they go.

    People like this will just make it more difficult for people who have a legitimate need to defend themselves in the future:cuss:.
     
  4. lacoochee

    lacoochee Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2006
    Messages:
    689
    Location:
    San Antonio, FL
    TS537 at first I thought you were joking. Seriously, you are going to let someone kick in your door in the wee hours of the morning just so you can show him your gun and hope that he will then flee? How would the home owner know that the guy kicking in his door was not going to kill him? Or that indeed he was the only attacker and not the vanguard of a crew of insane clown bikers?

    I don't see how this will be a test of the "Castle Doctrine" the presumption is if someone is breaking down your door you can use deadly force. There is no requirement that the home owner determine the intent of the home invader before the home owner responds. The police are not required to determine intent if a suspect reached into his pocket and withdraws an "object" before they use deadly force. Why should a home owner be held to a higher standard?

    Florida would make you even more angry, we can presume that if someone attempts to enter our car while we are occupants that they intend deadly harm and we can respond accordingly. In other words you jump into a passenger seat or even attempt to jump in that seat by breaking a window or trying to open the car door, we can use deadly force.
     
  5. WayneConrad

    WayneConrad Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2005
    Messages:
    2,128
    Location:
    Phoenix, AZ
    Location?

    News report?
     
  6. Mr_Rogers

    Mr_Rogers Member

    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2008
    Messages:
    483
    As usual, not so fast in the critique.

    Could the homeowner actually see who was at the door from inside the house?
    Had the door started to break open when the shot was fired or was it simply being kicked?
    How many people here would recommend opening a door to see who is there when it sounds as though someone is trying to force entry?
    How old was the homeowner?
    What is the homeowners physical condition?
    Who else was in the house?
    What sort of neighborhood is this?
    Any previous similar past events?

    Let's wait a while before the lynching. This sounds bad but who knows?
     
  7. mrokern

    mrokern Member

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2008
    Messages:
    166
    Location:
    Minnesota
    We're trying to get the law expanded in Minnesota for home defense, but at the moment legally we have to wait for the person to be inside. :banghead:

    You start trying to kick in somebody's door, it's your fault. Maybe common sense needs to come back so that idiots don't get loaded to the point where they go frightening law-abiding homeowners.

    -Mark
     
  8. TS537

    TS537 Member

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2008
    Messages:
    68
    Location:
    Louisiana
    You're right. There may be no legal requirement in Florida, but how about a moral requirement? You're taking a human life.

    Yeah, I'd wait until I knew who was kicking (note that it said kicking, not kicking down) my door before letting them have it. Stand back from the door with your gun ready. If they look menacing and they manage to bust down the door, do what you have to. A bullet travels faster than a moron. I like my odds.

    What if it was teenager playing a prank? Just because you have a "legal right" to do something doesn't make it OK. Not even in Florida. As for evil clowns, that only happens in Florida. Plus I have a 26 round mag. Again, I'm likin' my odds, and the unlikelihood of a Wrongful Death suit.:banghead:

    Also, given that you don't know me at all, it's pretty presumptuous of you to extrapolate from my reaction to this specific case what I'd "like" or "not like" about Florida law. Just sayin'. :D If somebody tried to break into my car with me or my wife in it, I'd most likely first use the car itself against them rather than a gun. I don't terribly much relish the idea of firing a gun in such a tiny enclosed space. We have a zero-deductible auto glass coverage clause, but it's not wise to invoke it too often, lest you incur the wrath of State Farm. Plus it's hell on the ears. If the guy was unfazed by my attempts to kill him with my Toyota, I might then resort to use of a firearm.

    When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
     
  9. PotatoJudge

    PotatoJudge Member

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2005
    Messages:
    1,332
    Location:
    Texas
    Know your target and what's behind it. That means no blindly shooting through doors, in my book.

    I actually went to high school with a kid, went off to Texas Tech and got shot drunkenly walking into the wrong apartment. It happens, and we as gun owners can at least try to do our part to prevent it.

    As far as this shoot, not enough info, as usual.
     
  10. Car Knocker

    Car Knocker Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2002
    Messages:
    3,809
    Location:
    Salt Lake City, UT
    KentuckyBlue,

    Do you have a link to this story?
     
  11. FTA84

    FTA84 Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2007
    Messages:
    86
    I guess it depends on the nature of the kicking. I imagine a young kid would be kicking the door in a manner intended to wake up the other occupant of the house. I reckon, depending on circumstances, that it would sound less violent and threatening than a kick intended to take the door down. It would depend on the situation, I doubt this guy would have shot through a door if he did not feel his life was in danger.

    Also, I hate people who use drunkness as an excuse to do things. Blah blah I'm sorry I was drunk when I did XXXX so it is ok that I did it because I was drunk.

    Wrong, nope. Nothing you do when you are drunk is any more ok than doing it sober. You made the decision to give up your right to cognative thought in order 'to have a good time'. Any consequences are entirely your fault. Don't want to get shot? Don't get so plastered you had to sleep in the car.
     
  12. GRIZ22

    GRIZ22 Member

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2006
    Messages:
    4,907
    The resident fired one shot through the door and into the chest of the victim

    I don't think this is a castle doctrine test but a test of the shooter's stupidity. Yes, the shooter is stupid.
     
  13. lacoochee

    lacoochee Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2006
    Messages:
    689
    Location:
    San Antonio, FL
    I would imagine that either way that I would be very upset at having to take any life but I will not allow indecision to cost the lives of my wife and child. I have no illusions about my ability to take out several assailants and you shouldn't either.

    Also Florida's castle doctrine law provides immunity against civil lawsuits brought by the families of criminals. (And regardless of the reason - intoxication, drugs, prank, robbery -- breaking down the door of an occupied home you don't live in in Florida is a violent criminal act).
     
  14. jfountain2

    jfountain2 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2008
    Messages:
    125
    Location:
    Memphis, TN.
    I would like to know more about the facts and circumstances around this too.
    It will be very interesting to see how this comes out.
     
  15. k_dawg

    k_dawg Member

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2005
    Messages:
    816
    Even if it were "illegal", the homeowner would be morally justified to shoot thru a door, WHILE said door was being busted down.

    For all he knows, that is just a distraction and another assailaint is sneaking in the back way.

    Shoot thru the door, then take a defensive posture against other avenues of ingress.
     
  16. lacoochee

    lacoochee Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2006
    Messages:
    689
    Location:
    San Antonio, FL
    Not enough detail in the story, so I think calling th shooter stupid is premature at best.
     
  17. mekender

    mekender Member

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2007
    Messages:
    1,255
    all moral requirements go out the window the second someone does something threatening to me or my family... and if they bust down the door and look like the pope himself, im shooting... the act of kicking my door in is a violent threat to the safety of my family...

    and a prank?... if you call that a prank, then the laws of natural selection come into play... as a homeowner, i would have no way of knowing the intentions of the said prankster that was kicking my door in
     
  18. Cosmoline

    Cosmoline Member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2002
    Messages:
    23,648
    Location:
    Los Anchorage
    Shooting THROUGH your door is always questionable. I won't say it's never appropriate, because there may be extraordinary circumstances where it's the only way to defend yourself. But I'm skeptical. I'd want to know if he was actually in the process of kicking the door down or just knocking with his foot. There should be some physical evidence one way or the other if the cops do the investigation properly.
     
  19. Len S

    Len S Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2006
    Messages:
    210
    We are hashing this out on a motorcycle forum. One poster said the area has a history of violent home invasions. That is the only other info offered.

    Len
     
  20. Car Knocker

    Car Knocker Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2002
    Messages:
    3,809
    Location:
    Salt Lake City, UT
    Len,
    Can you get a link of the other forum? We're sure getting a lot of opinions here based on some third- or fourth-hand information.
     
  21. jfountain2

    jfountain2 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2008
    Messages:
    125
    Location:
    Memphis, TN.
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2008
  22. Dksimon

    Dksimon Member

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2008
    Messages:
    525
    Location:
    South Dakota
    You still cannot shoot through the door. I think the BG has to actually illegally enter your home before deadly force is allowable.
     
  23. divemedic

    divemedic Member

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2007
    Messages:
    1,462
    Location:
    30 minute drive from Disney World
    I don't know about the other states, but in FL they do not have to be in the house yet, only attempting to enter:

     
  24. TS537

    TS537 Member

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2008
    Messages:
    68
    Location:
    Louisiana
    Here's another good what if to illustrate why shooting through the door in this (or any) instance might not be a good idea. What if it's a mother with a child in her arms, maybe being chased by an abusive spouse or boyfriend, who doesn't have her hands free, but is frantic and desperate and in need of help.

    Same loud kicking, but if you shoot at chest height, you kill her and the kid. Far fetched? Maybe, but if you do not, and I quote, "be sure of your target and what's behind it," you've just killed somebody you could have helped. Whether or not you would choose to "get involved," you will have just killed two people while attempting to defend yourself from an infant and an abused woman. Good luck with THAT jury.

    Also, who the hell names their child "Tardarvis"?
     
  25. mekender

    mekender Member

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2007
    Messages:
    1,255
    in NC, they have to either be in the process of entering or attempting to enter... or they have to be inside and threatening you... if they break in, sit on the couch and start watching the simpsons, you cant shoot them
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page