Shooting proficiency of the average police officer

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Once our local IPSC champ spent a day at the range with the 6 member swat team coaching them on shooting techniques, speed reloads and such. The very first thing he did was to have them line up 10 yards away from a row of steel plates about a foot in diamiter. When someone blew a whistle each cop was to draw and shoot the plate directly in front of him. The IPSC champ was in the middle. Not only did he knock down his own plate much faster than anyone else, after several turns he drew and fanned down everyone elses plate, 7 in a row before, before any of the swat team members made a single hit! The rest of the day went much like this. It was not that the cops were bad shots, it is just that they came up against an expert who fired about a thousand rounds a week.

The department was so embarriesd that they never asked him back.
Do you know why?

Because he was being a jerk.

Any of us can clear 7 12" rounds at 7 yards in less then 3 seconds.

You cant expect a cop to do that, and frankly I am glad they DONT know how.

The more folks would be dead in NY thats for sure.

I would like my police to take their time, and verify who and what they are shooting.

Law enforcement is not Steel Challenge.

A teacher shouldnt use the opportunity to train folks to show off.

And Speed Shooting isnt a requirement of policeing.

big -1 to that guy as far as I am concerned.
 
The department was so embarriesd that they never asked him back.

Let me get this straight. They were so embarrassed that their police officers were not proficient that they did not seek further training?
 
I'll share what 28 years in LE have shown me.

The passing score for handgun qualification at my mid-sized department (1500 officers) was 70%. The is 70% of the shots land anywhere on the black of a B-27 silhouette target.

When I started we shot a minimum of 6 shots from the 50 yard line (with revolvers) and were allowed to cock the hammers to SA...all the better shooters shot DA from that distance...we qualified 3 times a year. As semi-auto pistols became first the sidearm of choice and then the issue handgun, the longest qualification distances shortened first to 25 yards, than to 20 yards and finally 15 yards...and we only qualified twice a year (36 rounds/each)

Even at the generous 70% qualification score, we regularly had officers fail to qualify...we took their guns away and required them to attend additional training and requalify. I was my Divisional Guy, who worked with the borderline folks to make sure they qualified each time. The biggest factor in poor shooting among officers was a misunderstanding of technique and lack of interest in being better than needed. In their defense, driving a squad car is more dangerous and they allocated even less time to that training...and both driving and shooting are smaller parts of the job than other skills and actually have smaller exposures to liability.

The biggest improvement to departmental qualification scores was a Shooting Medal program, where officers could display how well they shot with a badge on their uniform...the highest rank was Distinguished Master which actually used the scoring rings on the B-27 and required a 97% score (350 out of 360). We tried to get the department to pay a performance incentive for higher rankings...didn't happen.

To give you an idea of the course; I once qualified at 84% without being able to see my front sight...brought wrong glasses and too lazy to go back to the car

Having said all that, I'll also not that my observation at the local ranges is that most of the weekend shooters...who, by definition, would be more interested in guns than the average...do not shoot as well as the median LEO
 
We tried to get the department to pay a performance incentive for higher rankings...didn't happen.

Was there some self-interest in this request?

In their defense, driving a squad car is more dangerous and they allocated even less time to that training...and both driving and shooting are smaller parts of the job than other skills and actually have smaller exposures to liability.

Off-topic, but I had considered potentially going into LE until I remembered how poor of a driver I am.
 
This might sound a bit off but didn't the US military start using M1 carbines as a subsitute for hanguns. One of the reasons being carbines are easy shoot than handguns. A small light weight carbine with modern sights might be a better choice for some officers.
 
Pretty sure a lot of officers have a carbine in their car, but they're not necessarily going to carry it around all day.
 
A small light weight carbine with modern sights might be a better choice for some officers.
A great many patrol officers do carry carbines these days, in their cars. But once again, a gun is a tool most officers will almost never use. So making them carry a rifle around with them everywhere is not going to happen. They need A gun with them because they may be called on to use it at any moment, but it has to be something small and holster-able so it isn't in their way while they perform the other 99.99% of their duties.
 
Any of us can clear 7 12" rounds at 7 yards in less then 3 seconds.
Really? ANY of us? ;)

You cant expect a cop to do that, and frankly I am glad they DONT know how.

The more folks would be dead in NY thats for sure.

I would like my police to take their time, and verify who and what they are shooting.
Hold on, flag on the play!

If you can see your front sight 7 times in three seconds (and sure, you can) then you absolutely CAN identify your target and make shoot/no-shoot decisions that fast as well.

So, yes, I do wish our officers were trained that well. Deciding who and whether to shoot isn't going to be steamrollered by rapidity of engagement.

Having said that, yeah, he was probably being a bit insensitive.

The IDPA "Tactical Journal" has published articles in the past on getting law enforcement more involved in the shooting sports (they have a monthly "behind the badge" column just for LEOs). One article dealt with the psychological issues involved. As I said, many people hold onto a certain mystique that says a cop surely must be a master of his weapon. Many cops do hold that same rather unfair standard as well -- either because they believe it and their ego is tied up in it, or because they think everyone else believes it and that a poor showing reflects badly on them as an officer.

When an officer attends a shooting match and comes in near the bottom of the heap, behind Suzie soccer mom who's using the same gun he's issued, that can be VERY uncomfortable. Combining that with the natural standoffishness of both groups toward average new people and many joe citizens toward cops (hey, isn't that the guy who gave me a ticket last week!?!) can make for a day that the officer has no desire to ever repeat.

If we want to get them out and shooting and becoming more proficient, we've got to do a better job of outreach, IMHO.
 
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Was there some self-interest in this request?
It was honestly put forth as a motivation for officers less inclined to practice...officers interested in being good, will always practice on their own

Off-topic, but I had considered potentially going into LE until I remembered how poor of a driver I am.
Still OT, common wisdom is that the only things that adversely affect you performance evaluations are Sick Leave usage and vehicle accidents (we drove at least 20k miles a year; working 4 days/week)
 
Before I became a LEO for Alabama I trained and with other Police officers. I put many of them through a modified pistol and rifle course from my time in the military, very few of them passed on the first go around. I even gave many of them a handicap to use their service weapons rather than the M9 I had procured for the other students. How well an LEO can shoot is like any other population sample; you have officers who shoot very well, some who suck, and some who just qualify. Were the NYC officers part of the suck category? Probably. Typically your gun nut LEOs (raises hand) will score better at the range.

It is very common for most police departments to cut budgets from areas such as gear and accessories (read as ammo) so less time is spent on the range. I have several friends in small precincts in NY who had to buy their own practice ammo due to budget cuts. To make matters worse other precincts I know discourage pistol range time in lieu of less-lethal training such as Tasers. And worst case scenario range time is discouraged because police officers should "be able to diffuse a situation without resorting to lethal force."
 
My neighbor is a cop; I've tried to talk him into coming out to a match several times.

I have a good buddy from college who is a NJ state trooper and comes to visit periodically... same thing.

No dice. Most of them simply aren't any more interested than your average non-cop gun owner.
 
This logic also holds true for our military! Just because you've been in the military does not make you a marksman. I've spent my entire life, since I was six, shooting and don't consider myself anything more than an adequate shot. I always qualified "Sharpshooter" in the Navy with both pistol (1911) and rifle (M-14) right up until I retired. However the majority of people who had no interest in guns or shooting rarely tried to qualify...it wasn't required! I don't know what the other branches policy is, but for the Navy, you only HAD to shoot a gun during boot camp and that was just for familiarization!
 
Over the years, I've known and shot with a good many cops. From small-town city officers to sheriff's deputies to state troopers, and even a couple BATF agents...who were actually pretty decent guys who fully supported RKBA.

The majority of cops that I've shot with were, and are fine marksmen...on the range.

Introduce high stress and the "Survival/Fight or Flight" response that we're all possessed of, and it can go sideways in a hurry. No one is immune. Not me. Not you. Not them.

There's an old saying that applies. (I just love old sayings.)

"In a gunfight, you'll probably do about as well as your worst day on the range."
 
My Dept shoots at a B-27 for annual qualification. Yes, we don't carry as often as street LE, but we do have many armed posts and many that interact with the public.
This falls in line with the common thread here about "how accurate do you have to be at 25 yards" - the scoring ring used is the 8 ring on the target, which is 17.5 inches by 9.5 inches. Most keyboard commandos insist shooting at 25 yards should need nothing bigger than a 3" circle. Our qualification is mostly 3,7 and 15 yards, only 6 rounds are fired at 25 yards. If you get all rounds inside the 8 ring, you are Distinguished Expert, 250 out of 250, 240 to 249 is Expert.

Rarely do you see anyone score Expert, much less Distinguished Expert. 2 trys to qualify, then off to remedial. Fail to qualify in 90 days and you are out of uniform working as a secretary. Fail again in 90- days and you are out of a job.
I have done off duty instructing with some staff to help them - good thing I reload, or they would have bankrupted me! 22lr Kadet Kit adapter for the CZ P-01 also helped a LOT.
A badge and a uniform doesn't mean "firearms expert."
Now for the flip side - I worked both indoor and outdoor ranges as a civilian, and the law enforcement officers who came in on their own time and dime to practice tended to be pretty good...I will never forget the officer who stopped in to pop a few rounds in uniform, and his issued sidearm FAILED TO FUNCTION...He kinda looked a wee bit sick, but FAR better he find out there than when his life was on the line, and if he hadn't come in for some off duty practice, he would never have known until it was too late.
I had Border Patrol snipers come practice at the outdoor range on their own time/dime, and they were good, very good.
Long and short, maybe I don't have the wide experience as some here, only ten years in uniform, but I've seen a wide selection of good and bad. The "gun people" shoot better and practice harder, the rest regard it as a necessary uniform item and an irritation to come in for qualification range.
 
I'll share what 28 years The biggest improvement to departmental qualification scores was a Shooting Medal program, where officers could display how well they shot with a badge on their uniform...the highest rank was Distinguished Master which actually used the scoring rings on the B-27 and required a 97% score (350 out of 360). We tried to get the department to pay a performance incentive for higher rankings...didn't happen.

I wish to test myself, I have B-27 targets available and an outdoor range to shoot at. Please tell me at what distances and if a time limit is involved. Thank you I really would appreciate your advice.
Nick
 
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My findings living in NY most of my life until the past 17 years, was that none of the cops that I hung aound with, ever even spoke about shooting or practicing. And being down the block from "central booking" the 112 PCT in Forest hills for 23 yrs, I had many "real" friends who were cops. We even had a few in our summer house in the Hamptons, although most times they would stay together, and kept to themselves. All their guns got locked up when they started drinking and playing cards, Too many things can go wrong. But no mention or interest in guns was shown by any that I remember.
I shot with some Nassau county cops at the Nassau County range, but there were far more civilians, or people who were in bail bonds, or other jobs that required shooting than LEOS back in the 70-90's.
My one friend retired and moved to Jupiter, where he joined a small dept, "3" guys.It was a real relaxing way to make another 30 grand a year.Joe never pulled his gun out in 25 years on the job. an honestlly knew less about guns than the average guy.Most of the old timers were dinasaurs, they hated what the dept had become, so they stayed low till it was time to leave.
My good friend , who I mentioned before several times over the years, was the youngest to make 1st grade detective,"at the time", and when we went out, he never took his gun with him. I found it strange, but he was always evasive about not wanting to carry it. He wasn't a drinker either. Everyone is different I guess.Some can completlly detach themselves from their job, some can't. All I knew were divorced at least once.They changed after 5 or so years on the job.Most only carry a gun because it's part of the job, IMO.
 
Just because you've been in the military does not make you a marksman.

So true! When I was in High School I knew an ex-army-sniper, and when I asked what the "-06" in .30-06 meant, he told me it was because it was .30 caliber, 6 mm. I trust people based on what they say, and not what their past professions were...especially after working IT with people who have been in the industry longer than I've been alive.

This is also why I don't hold any special reverence of the abilities of a police officer compared with a normal civilian.
 
I wish to test myself, I have B-27 targets available and an outdoor range to shoot at. Please tell me at what distances and if a time limit is involved. Thank you I really would appreciate your advice.
Nick
If I could remember, I'd tell you. I don't even have the slightest idea what the time limits were as I was usually done and holstered before others on the line were finished...especially at the longer ranges. They used to rotate through 6 different COF

What stands out in the dim recesses of my mind is this from a Medal Round:
1. 25 yards - 6 rounds strong side barricade, reload, 6 rounds weak side barricade.

2. 20 yards - 6 rounds, reload, go to kneeling and fire 6 more

3. 10 yards - 3 rounds strong hand only, transfer gun to other hand and 3 weak hand only

4. 7 yards - 6 rounds
 
The vast majoriity of the cops I worked with only trained with their sidearms when they were ordered to report for qualification.

This happened only about once a year.

Three strings of 50 shots.
Only had to shoot 43/50 on a man-size silhouette on one of the strings.
 
A few words about weapons training for police officers. Those "annual standards" that every department requires are pretty much set by each state (and they do talk to each other about such things). You get the same proficiency rates with police officers that you do with most armed forces recruits.... Those with an interest will find the time to do addtional training and those particular guys/gals will usually go on to become instructors, special weapons types, etc. I was actually in charge of training (every kind from classroom to hands on, including qualifications, remedials, etc.) for a small department (100 sworn) for about three years. Finding ways to make the training interesting, street survival oriented, while still staying within budget is just plain tough for any department....

Yes I've seen more than my share of "spray and pray" police shootings... most had the common denominator of lots of action with very little results. Yes, there are officers that if required will absolutely respond with carefully controlled deadly results (and I'd like to think that I was one of them but only had one instance to find out...). The good news for us all is that unlike TV and movie stuff, in real life very few officers will ever need their weapons skills. Whether the officer is particularly skilled or not is pretty much a random proposition.....

Because I worked in south Florida during the height of the cocaine wars (and during a time when more than a few officers were indicted for police shootings) we were forced to become much more proficient both at the range and in the area of tactics. I'm proud to say that during my career our agency never had a bad shooting (but some of that was pure luck....).

For those that think anyone with range skills can perform on the street... here's a proposition for you. Before stepping up to the target line - get in a high speed chase, then run a few blocks while uncertain of what you'll actually find... then run into an area you're completely unfamiliar with (and you're not sure if the citizens on the scene are on your side or your opponents)..... then draw and fire for effect. Once you've done that once or twice...then do it at 3Am on a night when you've been in court all day. Hitting anything or anyone in those circumstances is pretty tough, but that's never how they show it in the movies....
 
Just thought I would share a few thoughts as well...

First, some view/feel that the police should be a representative of the larger population they serve...That will also bring out personal interests that a segment will share, some more or less so. Proficiency in firearms can be inculded in these personal interests...Also, there is absolutely no way 1 single officer can be an absolute expert on everything to do with his/her work, which is not only why the differences in ranks/assignments, but also calling on another officer tor advice or help.

While carrying a firearm as a law enforcement officer does bring a level of liability, generally speaking from my experience again, is that driving is a larger problem from a liability standpoint. While there is the annual (or more often) qualification for firearms to test ability, there is no test on driving, and little training on either firearms or driving. Also, at least locally, there is no practice on qualification day. You shoot to score, if you qualify its recorded, if not its recorded as well, and 2 chances for make up, each on seperate days are allowed.

If you take a look at the regular con ed an officer goes through each year it would show how the standards, and the agencies view as most needed. Usually at least here its:

Legal Updates
Ethics
Haz-Mat/Bloodborn Pathogens
Sensitivity Training (geared toward either juvenile, domestic, or LBGT)

I have only had 1 firearms class over the years, and 1 driving class, both were very limited in scope as well.

nikn10 said:
I wish to test myself, I have B-27 targets available and an outdoor range to shoot at. Please tell me at what distances and if a time limit is involved. Thank you I really would appreciate your advice.
Nick

from memory here is the standard NC qualification. Unless noted each part is started with clear hands, and holstered pistol.

3 yards.

Load and holster. All rounds fired single handed this stage.

1. Draw (secure duty holster) and fire 2 rounds in 2 seconds using one hand only. Keep target covered until ordered to holster.

2. Draw (secure duty holster) and fire 2 rounds in 2 seconds using one hand only. Keep target covered until ordered to holster.

3. Draw (secure duty holster) and fire 2 rounds in 2 seconds using one hand only. Keep target covered until ordered to holster.

7 yards

1. Draw and fire 3 rounds in 5 seconds, keep target covered, on command fire 2 rounds in 3 seconds, keep the target covered, on command fire 1 round, reload and fire 2 rounds with the support hand only in 15 seconds. support hand firing is one hand only.

2. Draw and fire 12 rounds in 20 seconds.

15 yards

1. Draw and fire 6 rounds go to kneeling position and fire 6 rounds in 30 seconds with required mag change in kneeling position

25 yards

1. Draw and fire 6 rounds standing, go to prone and fire 6 rounds both from behind barricade in 60 seconds.

Night time.

3 yards. Single handed, and total darkness.

Load and holster

1. Draw (secure duty holster) and fire 2 rounds in 2 seconds using one hand only. Keep target covered until ordered to holster.

2. Draw (secure duty holster) and fire 2 rounds in 2 seconds using one hand only. Keep target covered until ordered to holster.

3. Draw (secure duty holster) and fire 2 rounds in 2 seconds using one hand only. Keep target covered until ordered to holster.

5 yards. Flashlight for first 6 rounds.

load and holster with flashlight in ring/scabbard.

1 Draw and fire 3 rounds in 5 seconds, keep target covered.

2. on command fire 2 rounds in 3 seconds. keep target covered.

3. on command fire 1 round, reload and fire 2 rounds with the support hand only in 15 seconds. Support hand firing must be one hand only.

7 yards, 12 rounds Vehicle Blue lights only.

load and holster

Draw and fire 12 founds in 20 seconds with mag change.

10 yard line. Blue lights and head lights.

load and holster.

1. Draw and fire 3 rounds in 5 seconds, keep target covered, on command fire 2 rounds in 3 seconds, keep target covered, on command fire 1 round in 1 second.

2. Draw and fire 2 rounds in 5 seconds, in the kneeling position. Start standing up.

3. Draw and fire 2 rounds in 5 seconds, in the kneeling position. Start standing up.

4. Draw and fire 2 rounds in 5 seconds, in the kneeling position. Start standing up.


15 yards. headlights, and blue lights.

Draw and fire 6 rounds from standing position, and go to kneeling position and fire 6 rounds in 30 seconds.

Scoring is cumulitive total multiplied by .4 for a max score of 250 (100%) and min score of 175 (70%) though each agency may decide to set a higher min score. My agency is 80% for pistol, all shots must be on target.
 
i wouldnt say the police here are necessarily poor shots.. but i will say when it comes to delivering a projectile on target, theyre as good as tebow
 
One reason police have low hit rates is their tactics. Police shoot down doors and cinder block walls. They lay down suppression fire and use other military tactics. There is no way to get an fair and accurate count of how many rounds it takes for a LEO to hit a suspect.
 
^
Why do you say that? They are issued a certain amount of duty ammunition and by simple math, that answer is easily and always found by that department.
 
Cops need time in simulators for situational training. It was a one in a thousand incident, but shooting nine civilians on a crowded street isn't smart.
 
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