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Shooting with Delta Force

Discussion in 'Strategies, Tactics and Training' started by MudPuppy, Jan 17, 2015.

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  1. MudPuppy

    MudPuppy Member

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    So, I finally got some trigger time--i was invited to shoot with about 18 folks with instruction from a former SF, Delta Force guy.
    There's not a lot of guns I don't like (ar vs an and glock vs 1911 fueds are just dumb, I say, I love and own em all). But I have been more of a rifle guy. I'm a decent shot with a pistol, but never much practical training on employment. I watch videos and do some carbine stuff that included sidearm transition, but minimal learnings in the pistol space.
    Some observations:
    Someone's Korean glock mag came apart during firing. Floorplate shot out the bottom, spring flying, etc. I know there's a lot of snobbery around a lot of topics and I don't always buy into in (I like my Taurus better than Berreta-based on 10k rounds through 3 of them and not a so single failure. But hey, no hating, let's stay on target). I'm just saying I had an in person, I actually saw one fail spectacularly. For now, the ones I have will be range use only.

    I realized I'd not given enough thought to even how or different ways you can hold a handgun. Eye opening. Alignment of thumbs, where it goes, etc.

    Biggest eye opener was my lack of knowing squat about reloading. I've seen some of the magpul videos, but I know I need a lot of work/practice. (I felt like a doomsday prepped with 20 guns, an assault wheelbarrow,and 3 tons of protein bars that hasn't exercised except the mouse finger of the internet index finger).
    We talk about the "slide stop" vs "slide release". (Again, I'm an extreme pistol novice, but I'm a slide release guy). Btw, I took heat for bringing up fine vs motor skills for all you "assclowns" (his words,not mine. You expect flowery language and hugs? Delta folks...PC was not on his agenda). "How to you find the mag release then??" He taught weakhand as desired, fastest, followed by slingshot (esp if you use a variety of diff waepons so you don't have to learn diff MofA). He did say the Berretta runs a risk of decocking withe the slingshot method. I didn't understand that, but didn't followup.
    He's not a fan of DA. His perspective is with HKs, Glocks, etc, we have better options. I'm a 1911 guy only new to the glock world (love the grip frame, trigger, balance and safety of 1911s, but I'm loving the 17 and even the 20-but wish I'd have gone shortframe).
    I shot about 300 rounds through a well maintained glock 17 and had one stovepipe, was a bright spot how rapidly I cleared it, pat on my own back.
    A couple of the marines there shot extremely well, best shooter was probably one of those two. A seal was a good shooter too, most of the rest of the class was solid.
    A new Springfield 1911 (not sure of the specs, but a 45) lost its front sight. I was torn between a springer and a ruger 1911 over Christmas and the Range Officer model is still on my short list, so I took note of that. A springer in 9mm seemed to run great.
    Sarefty was super pro.

    And I avoided a nickname--again, think Delta and you can imagine how those weren't complimentary.

    And we all know, even a bad day shooting beats a great day at work. And this was a great day of shooting. :)
     
  2. moxie

    moxie Member

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    Sounds like a fun day.

    FWIW, I've seen 9mm EMPs crap out during two different training exercises. Shooters had to use trainer's G19 to finish.

    Purely my very limited observation, but most reliable, trouble-free (no whining) pistols I've witnessed during such exercises are M&Ps, Glocks and stock Colt 1911s.
     
  3. TestPilot

    TestPilot Member

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    I try to get the same point across people.

    The reality does not care if you want to do fine motor skills or not, or whether if you consider something a fine motor skill or not.

    If you need to do something to survive, and cannot because it is a fine motor skill, you just die.

    It is a frequent thing with Beretta. When you clutch the slide and pull it back, it is easy to flip the lever down. If you don't flip it back up, you just get a dead trigger.
     
  4. MudPuppy

    MudPuppy Member

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    It seemedseemed like 1911s were most common, with aa smattering of Glocks, XD, SigSig, and HK. One ii didn't recognize and meant ask (looked like alike Daewoo 9 at a glance) and a Berretta 92 (even he had a 1911,but is soon to deploy so wisely focusing on the 92.

    But just as many problems were operator error (ie, not having a mag in the gun, or shortloaded mag. Heh, that'll earn you a knickname. I nearly got "shortbus" , but redeemed myself quickly )
     
  5. RustyShackelford

    RustyShackelford member

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    "Delta Force".....

    FWIW; there is no Delta Force.
    The term and the unit were re-organized by SECDEF Donald Rumsfeld in the early 2000s.
    The SFOD-1 was called the CAG or Combat Applications Group then ACE. Army Combative Elements. Even this term may have since changed. :rolleyes:

    Military special ops units routinely change names or locations for "OPSEC" or security reasons.
     
  6. rcmodel

    rcmodel Member in memoriam

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    I'm sure it was fun for you and all.

    But if I needed to be screamed at and insulted again..

    I would do it for free by looking in the mirror and screaming military insults at myself!

    Rc
     
  7. o Unforgiven o

    o Unforgiven o Member

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    Would you like some tactical screws to go with all those acronyms? Might help hold them all together...
     
  8. Ricky T

    Ricky T Member

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    There is a Delta Force. Chuck Norris was in it.
     
  9. moxie

    moxie Member

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    Ditto what RC said. The screaming and cursing thing is oh so yesterday.
     
  10. ugaarguy

    ugaarguy Moderator Staff Member

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    Since this is essentially a training class AAR I've moved it to ST&T.
     
  11. Matthew Temkin

    Matthew Temkin Member

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    He did say the Berretta runs a risk of decocking withe the slingshot method. I didn't understand that, but didn't followup.
    Any pistol with that type of decocker/safety lever--S&W comes to mind--can be inadvertently activated when using the slingshot method.
    Meaning that when you try to do the bang after the tap/rack you may find you pistol is on safe.
     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2015
  12. MudPuppy

    MudPuppy Member

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    Technically correct, he was with "1st Special Forces Operational Detachment – Delta."

    (They used magazines, not clips, suppressors, not silencers, etc. )

    His words "commonly referred to as Delta Force".

    Thanks for the technical clarification--I just assumed everyone knew that already.

    And to be clear, it wasn't boot camp getting yelled at--it was all in good fun, so long as everything was safe. Brought back good memories.

    Thanks for that info Matthew--I ran a PT-92 for a long while with the frame mounted safety and never found that to be a risk? (I do not like frame mounted safeties at all. at all...)
     
  13. Fred Fuller

    Fred Fuller Moderator Emeritus

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    There are any number of folks out there offering professional defensive firearms training who have served with They Who Must Not Be Named in the past. All of them I know are very good at what they do. But of course I don't know them all. In fact I have not been officially cleared to admit ever knowing any of them :D.

    And Special Forces basically teach for a living ...
     
  14. o Unforgiven o

    o Unforgiven o Member

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    I get what you're trying to imply, but Silencer is what Maxim called it in 1909 and what the ATF calls it today as does every piece of legislation controlling it.
     
  15. Deaf Smith

    Deaf Smith Member

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    No, Delta Force was invented by Chuck Norris, SOOCOM liked the idea and thus Delta Force became a reality.

    As for 'fine motor skill', one man's fine motor skill is another one's gross motor skill.

    It's all on how well you train, and how well you keep your cool.

    Deaf
     
  16. Nom de Forum

    Nom de Forum Member

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    Yup, many people do not realize that many senior NCO Special Forces guys look like your slightly overweight 8th grade science teacher. :D

    Not mentioning who served with "They Who Must Not Be Name" is stuff more about silliness than OPSEC. Only the guys actively serving in those units need to be protected from exposure. When I was working on Smoke Bomb Hill it was no big deal to know who had spent time with the guys on Butner Road. When you walk into one of these guy's office and see mementos that anyone with a discerning eye can I.D. indicating service with DELTA (or whatever cool name they go by now) there is nothing other than silliness going on when the mere mention of knowing these guys is condemned as self-aggrandizing name dropping.
     
  17. HankB

    HankB Member

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    Matches and classes are good places to see what guns & accessories fail under stress.

    Including your own hardware - the OP has now relegated his Korean Glock mags to practice.

    A few things I've seen:

    Chip McCormick 1911 magazines losing their floorplate. (Multiple instances)
    Adjustable sight BHP losing it's front sight. (The tall ramp simply broke off)
    Walther P99s becoming unreliable after <100 rounds.
    New Taurus PT92 breaking the locking block.
    Wilson Combat 1911s chewing up the user's hands after many rounds fired. (Too many sharp edges)
     
  18. Deaf Smith

    Deaf Smith Member

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    And Hank, hence I use a Glock...

    I have learned the hard way not to jazz it up much nor add a bunch of aftermarklet parts.

    Even a Glock will fail if you use substandard parts or parts that have never really been combat tested.

    I once had some after market floor plates fail during a match (yes while using a Glock at that!)

    And shooting your carry piece and all its related equipment in matches test it all out to make sure it works.. everytime!

    Deaf
     
  19. g.willikers

    g.willikers Member

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    "If I had a dime for every guy I've met who claimed to be Delta Force......."
    Author unknown.
     
  20. Fred Fuller

    Fred Fuller Moderator Emeritus

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    Well, let's see. An impromptu history lesson... from most recent to oldest, chronologically.

    1) The movie Delta Force came out in 1986, says the IMDb.

    2) SFOD-D was founded in 1977, and set up shop in Ft. Bragg's old stockade. Some thought this appropriate :D. Especially the folks from 5th Group at Mott Lake.

    3) COL Beckwith, who was largely responsible for creating SFOD-D, ran one of the Greek letter recon projects in SEA during his time in country. That was Project Delta. There was also a Sigma and Omega and maybe more, I'm getting old timer's disease these days.
     
  21. Nom de Forum

    Nom de Forum Member

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    The more sophisticated posers don't usually claim Delta, it is alway some SF unit or SPECOPS unit they can't name because it is "classified".. It is fairly easy to catch these guys if you can pin them down to dates and places then names and minor details they should know but would not read about in a book.

    I have no problem with real former Delta and whatever SOCOM unit members using that on their resume to be a professional trainer. These guys deserve to make some real money if they can since they were never paid enough for what agreed to do in the military.
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2015
  22. Nom de Forum

    Nom de Forum Member

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    At least in the mid 80's and early 90's it seemed like you could not throw a stone without hitting some small very special unit nobody was supposed to know about. During the Reagan administration there was so much money available for Specops is was incredible. I suspect it is the same today since 9-11.
     
  23. MudPuppy

    MudPuppy Member

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    I actually have met more people that have poo poo'ed that other people are "claiming to be X" than I've every met people claiming to be X when they're not.

    I've met a few SF guys through work (we hire them on as trainers/consultants--even though I do nothing related, the life skills and achieve the mission mindset resonates). I've also met a couple of SEALS (or Underwater, Sea, Air, Land, detatchment X-ray 6 niner or whatever), including some dude last named Denver.

    The instructor who held the class was some clown named Larry Vickers? Dunno, I'd never heard of him til that day. Dunno...
     
  24. Nom de Forum

    Nom de Forum Member

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    Ya, who ever heard of Larry Vickers.:D
     
  25. Fred Fuller

    Fred Fuller Moderator Emeritus

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    The Greek letter projects were Vietnam era.

    The Goldwater-Nichols DoD Reorganization Act (1986) took Special Forces in particular and special operations in general from being the red-headed stepchildren of the Big Green Army, to being -over time- the "popular kids." It didn't do SF any favors, as I could see it. Back in the early 80s it took some real sacrifice to be in a SF group. SF always got hand-me-downs, except where people were concerned. Where people were concerned they could afford to be picky.

    Then it came to "filling the force" and qualifications started dropping... oh well. That was then.

    Anyone who came out of the operational side of Range 19 is on top of their game. Shooting IPSC in central NC back when would let you know just how much that was the case.

    some clown named Larry Vickers :D
     
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