short barrel rifle

Discussion in 'Legal' started by bophi, Feb 24, 2016.

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  1. bophi

    bophi Member

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    question. can i have a rifle overall is 26.5 inches long with a stock and a barrel less than 16 inches without a tax stamp' all the info i read , say's less than 26 inches. you need a tax stamp. thanks. i have a meghrtech ccu . in 45 acp i removed the stock and cut 4 inches off of barrel ( now 12 in.. ) and i want to add the stock and keep the barrel as is, 12 in. thanks.
     
  2. 12Bravo20

    12Bravo20 Member

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    Once a rifle, ALWAYS a rifle! Unless you built it as a pistol first. The way the regs read is that a rifle must have at least a 16' barrel AND be over 26" long to be legal. Even if a rifle is over 26" long and has a stock designed to be shouldered but with a barrel shorter than 16", it's considered a SBR and must be registered.

    I have an AR pistol with a 10.5" barrel and with the KAK buffer tube, designed for the SIG brace, it is 26.5" long but I still can't put a stock on it without first registering it as a SBR.
     
  3. bophi

    bophi Member

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    thanks, this item is not a firearm until the lower receiver, such as my 1911 , is added. is does not have a serial no. there is no FFL required to buy, so it was never a rifle or a pistol. so i can add a buffer tube such as on a ar 15 PISTOL to it and it will be clasifed as a pistol,
     
  4. dogtown tom

    dogtown tom Member

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    No, that would be an SBR, requiring an NFA tax stamp.


    Federal law defines an SBR as having an OAL of less than 26" or a barrel length of less than 16".


    To be clear.....once you assemble your 1911 into what you describe you have made a Short barreled rifle. it is immaterial that the Mechtech is not a firearm by itself.....but once you add a firearm frame or receiver you have an SBR.

    Adding an AR15 buffer tube to a MechTech upper doesn't make it a pistol.

    If you possess both a 1911 handgun and a Mechtech CCU with an OAL of less than 26" or bbl length of less than 16", you darn well better be in possession of an ATF tax stamp. You are in constructive possession of an SBR. If you read the FAQ's on the MechTech website you will see their warning regarding removal of the shoulder stock.
     
  5. MachIVshooter
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    MachIVshooter Contributing Member

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    A rifle with a barrel <16" is SBR, period. No ifs, ands or buts. Only exception to the stamp is being a licensed SOT, or a licensed collector in the event that the SBR weapon is C&R eligible.

    I think your confusion arises from the non-NFA "other firearm" classification as it applies to shotguns with <18" barrels but >26" OAL. They may not have a stock, though, or they become SBS.

    The only thing that having a >26" OAL on a weapon with a <16" barrel does for you is classify it as an other firearm rather than a handgun, which allows the use of a vertical forward grip. You still absolutely cannot put a stock on it without registering it as an SBR.
     
  6. pjeski

    pjeski Member

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    A pistol can be over 26" oal. There is no limit for oal or barrel length for a pistol per the Feds. . When you put the VFG on it, it is then no longer a pistol and becomes just a firearm because it doesn't meet the definition of AOW because of the length. Unless you actually conceal it, then it is an AOW even if over 26".
     
  7. Coyote3855

    Coyote3855 Member

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    Because the consequences of violating a federal law concerning restricted/regulated firearms can be extreme, you need to seek specific information, not the opinions of people like me on the internet. However, I believe MachIVshooter gives you the best advice. I do not think there are "workarounds" to federal law.
     
  8. esq_stu

    esq_stu Member

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    It is my understanding that using a pistol receiver on Mechtech CCU does not create an SBR as long as the barrel is over 16 inches long. The overall length only matters when the firearm is made from a rifle.

    See https://www.atf.gov/file/55526/download

    An NFA firearm is NOT made by converting a pistol to a rifle. By definition,
    --Rifle with <16 inch barrel is NFA
    --Weapon made from a rifle less than 26 inches long is NFA
    --Weapon made from something other than a rifle (e.g. 1911 receiver, Glock receiver) is NOT made from a rifle, and therefore NOT NFA if the barrel is 16 inches or longer.

    I am not concerned that putting my Glock receiver on my Mechtech CCU with wire-collapsible stock in an SBR (OAL < 26").
     
  9. MachIVshooter
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    MachIVshooter Contributing Member

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    If the weapon has a stock, it MUST be >26" OAL and >16" barrel, PERIOD. Otherwise, it is SBR.

    With NO shoulder stock, it is a pistol. If >26" OAL, it may be considered an "other firearm" for the purpose of installing a vertical forward grip, which is not lawful to do on a pistol. Bear in mind, though, that concealing an other firearm instantly turns it into an NFA regulated AOW.

    It's not either/or on the 26" OAL and 16" barrel. If the weapon has a stock, to remain title I, it must be BOTH >26" OAL and >16" barrel. It does not matter if it began life as a rifle or not.

    The difference lies in that a rifle may never be made into a pistol or other firearm without the stamp, while a pistol can be made into an other firearm or rifle legally, and converted back and forth at will.

    AND has an OAL of >26" if it has a shoulder stock.


    So long as it sports a >16" tube and measures >26" OAL with the stock unfolded, you're GTG; OAL with folding or collapsible stocks is measured with the stock in the unfolded or extended position.

    Just to be 100% clear for everyone, one more time:

    a title I rifle must have a 16" barrel and 26" OAL
    a title I shotgun must have an 18" barrel (or barrels) and 26" OAL
    an other firearm must be 26" OAL and have NO shoulder stock
    A handgun is, federally, any firearm with no shoulder stock, regardless of barrel or OAL.

    The distinction of "other firearm", once again, only comes into play for handguns where attaching a vertical forward grip is concerned. Handguns, however, cannot be smoothbore and remain title I, so the "other firearm" classificationis more significant, as PGO shotguns may have a barrel of <18" so long as they are 26" OAL. However, they must have started life as an "other firearm", whether a virgin receiver or something like this; you cannot hack the stock on your 870 and cut the barrels down to 14", as that would be an SBS.
     
  10. esq_stu

    esq_stu Member

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    Please back that up with a citation. Because the statute and the definition in the rule most definitely do not say that.
    My Mechtech was not "made from a rifle." It was made from a Glock. ATF does not care how long it is overall - as long as the barrel is 16 inches or longer, they are not interested.
    There's those pesky words "made from a rifle," which a 1911 or a Glock certainly is not.

    It says clearly on page 4 of the linked AFT notice,
    It says nothing about overall length. It only refers to barrel length.

    Do you have either a revised definition of short-barreled rifle or a more recent ATF guidance that conflicts with this? Because unless you are from the ATF or the Justice Department and tell me you're coming after me because of my Mechtech, I'm going to have to continue to disagree with you. (And even if you are, I might have to disagree anyway.)
     
  11. MachIVshooter
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    MachIVshooter Contributing Member

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    Why don't you go ahead and alter your mechtech to the dimensions you've convinced yourself are acceptable with a shoulder stock attached and find out for yourself what constitutes SBR. I mean, why not? It's only 10 years of your life at stake.

    It's not generally an issue, as receivers and buttstocks attached to 16" tubes are well over 26" OAL with almost any design. But there are those unique critters such as the Kel-Tec RFB, which sports an 18" barrel to make the 26" OAL minimum for title I status.
     
  12. esq_stu

    esq_stu Member

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    Doesn't it seem odd that Mechtech can freely sell these kits?

    http://www.mechtechsys.com/faqs.php#b0
    Glock unit with Telestock: 25 7/16 inches OAL
    1911 unit with Telestock: 24 3/4 inches OAL
    XD/XD(M) with Telestock: 25 1/8 inchesOAL

    Why hasn’t ATF done something about these terrible conspirators to make SBRs? Could it because they aren’t SBRs?
     
  13. MachIVshooter
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    MachIVshooter Contributing Member

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    Nope. Because, as I already said, folding or collapsible stocks are measured unfolded or extended for OAL, which makes every one of those >26"
     
  14. pdsmith505

    pdsmith505 Member

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    Federal OAL is measured with stocks fully extended, so the correct OAL's are:
    Glock - 33 15/16
    1911 - 33 1/8
    M&P - 33 5/8

    So... No, they aren't SBR's
     
  15. Frank Ettin

    Frank Ettin Moderator Staff Member

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    Let's look at the statutory definition of "short barreled rifle" (18 USC 921(a)(8), emphasis added):

    So if you have a rifle, and if the barrel of that rifle is less than 16 inches, it's a short barreled rifle. Alternatively, if you have a rifle and modify it so that the overall length as modified is less that 26 inches, that is also a short barreled rifle.

    In other words, a short barreled rifle is either --

    1. A rifle with a barrel less than 16 inches long; or

    2. A rifle which has been modified to be less than 26 inches long overall.

    Let's also look at the statutory definition of "rifle" (18 USC 921(a)(7), emphasis added):

    So if one remakes a handgun to be fired from the shoulder, it becomes a rifle. If the barrel as thus remade is less than 16 inches, it's a short barreled rifle. So when you take your Glock 19 and put one of these on it, you've made a short barreled rifle.

    But if you modify your Glock with both a shoulder stock and a barrel 16 inches long or longer, you've simply made a rifle.
     
  16. esq_stu

    esq_stu Member

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    Excellent, and a point that I missed earlier. Makes the MechTech AOK as long as the barrel is left at 16." With any stock Mechtech sells, fixed or collapsible, it would be a rifle. With the stock removed completely it would be a pistol, albeit very front-heavy and awkward.
     
  17. pjeski

    pjeski Member

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    So Frank,

    It's been established that the kits Stu referred to end up with an OAL >26". But, from the way the law is written and your (and Stu's) explanation of it, is a rifle made from a firearm other than a rifle such as a pistol or a bare receiver (that has never been a rifle) with a barrel over 16" and an OAL under 26" in fact just a rifle? I have always believed that, as MachIV says, if it's under 26" as a rifle, it is an SBR, but after reading Stu's interpretation, I believe that until you do something with that rifle that the ATF considers making a weapon, it is just a rifle. As both you and Stu pointed out, the definition of an SBR only considers OAL for weapons made from rifles.
     
  18. pjeski

    pjeski Member

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    I do not believe that this is quite correct. A pistol is defined as:

    What in that definition says that a weapon is not a pistol because the OAL is >26"? What in any federal law says so?
    You don't get to "consider" the pistol to be just a firearm so you can add a VFG to it. Also, there is no law specifically prohibiting you from installing a VFG on a pistol. It is just that doing so makes the weapon no longer a pistol as defined above. Where you run afoul of the law is if that weapon now fits the definition of an AOW by being <26" OAL, or as you said, actually being concealed. That is a problem only if you do not have a SOT or an approved Form 1 to make an AOW. If the weapon is over 26" in length or concealed, then, not being a pistol, and not being an AOW, it is just a firearm.

    You don't consider it an other firearm to add the VFG, you make it an other firearm by adding the VFG.

    If you read the ATF letter on the XO26, the wording clearly interprets the weapon as a pistol if it did not have a VFG:
    On the second page, it is described that a Thompson 1927 pistol, while marketed as a pistol, is not, and that is because "it is not designed to be held and fired by a single hand." (not because it is over 26")

    The next paragraph goes on to say "If an individual attaches a vertical forward grip to a pistol, the pistol is no longer designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand; thus, it cannot qualify as a “handgun” or “pistol” as defined above in federal statutes and regulations." Mr Spencer does not mention length at this point, only the addition of the VFG, and the implication is that the weapon without the VFG is in fact a pistol. I think at this point it is clear that Mr Spencer interprets an AR pistol with an OAL over 26" as a pistol, not a firearm. He goes on to say:
    "Additionally, because it is no longer a pistol, it is not exempt from classification as an “AOW” pursuant to para. 5845(e). A firearm of this type is properly classified an AOW if its overall length is less than 26”, or if it is actually concealed on the person."
    Here is the first place OAL comes into play, and that is after he has determined that the weapon is no longer a pistol (because of the VFG), and the OAL keeps it from falling into the definition AOW.

    If you have a reference to cite that contradicts the above, please post it. I am open to learning.
     
  19. MachIVshooter
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    MachIVshooter Contributing Member

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    Technically, yes, but also a pedantic chicken/egg argument over the finer points. I worded the way I did to put emphasis on the 26" OAL, lest the OP or anyone else mistakenly believe that adding a VFG to any handgun makes it a legal title I "other firearm". The line between title I other firearm and title II AOW confuses people easily, and I'd rather folks walk away with that >26" stockless gun stuck in their mind so that one doesn't misread a post, get up, and go put a VFG on their Glock 17 believing it's now an other firearm rather than a handgun turned AOW. If they wish to research further, they can glean a better understanding of the nuances.

    All that is salient here is that a firearm >26" OAL but without shoulder stock can have a VFG and/or have rifled barrel(s) of <16" or smoothbore barrel(s) of <18" and not be NFA, unless you conceal said firearm.
     
  20. Arizona_Mike

    Arizona_Mike Member

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    That's not what you were saying though . . . you were saying AOL does not matter and that is dangerous advice.

    Mike

    I've SBRed a couple of my Glock lowers. Between multiple configurations of MechTech, Fab Defense Stocks, and Roni chassis, there is a lot of versatility from one stamp.
     
  21. pjeski

    pjeski Member

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    To be clear, he was not saying that OAL does not matter, he was saying that the limit on OAL only applies to weapons made from a rifle, not weapons made from other firearms such as pistols or receivers, which is the way the statute reads. I'd be interested to know more.
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2016
  22. Tirod

    Tirod Member

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    Unless affirmed by the OP otherwise, it was a pistol first, the slide removed and a different upper attached. That made it a rifle.

    With the stock removed and barrel at 14", per ATF, it's a pistol again.

    What lower receiver is being used?
     
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