AStone
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Where's that 'like' button?
Short sticks
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Owen Sparks
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Short clubs are designed to compensate for lack of swing speed by putting most of the mass out on the striking end.
One way to get away with carrying a stick that is shorter than a walking cane is to disguise it as something else or find one that serves another purpose that can double as a weapon. For example, you can carry a hickory axe handle in your car as long as you have the axe head on the seat beside it. You can have a length of steel pipe as long as you have a few other plumbing supplies like elbows and tees to go with it. I have a steering wheel locking bar called "The Club" and the thin half is solid steel rod but is just about perfect to serve as a short heavy stick. If you buy one be sure to get the longer truck model. It will still work in your car just fine. Another "tool" I have is a giant screw driver about 16" long. It weighs over a pound and the shaft is about half an inch in diamiter. Anybody know of any law against carrying a screw driver?
One way to get away with carrying a stick that is shorter than a walking cane is to disguise it as something else or find one that serves another purpose that can double as a weapon. For example, you can carry a hickory axe handle in your car as long as you have the axe head on the seat beside it. You can have a length of steel pipe as long as you have a few other plumbing supplies like elbows and tees to go with it. I have a steering wheel locking bar called "The Club" and the thin half is solid steel rod but is just about perfect to serve as a short heavy stick. If you buy one be sure to get the longer truck model. It will still work in your car just fine. Another "tool" I have is a giant screw driver about 16" long. It weighs over a pound and the shaft is about half an inch in diamiter. Anybody know of any law against carrying a screw driver?
Carl Levitian
member
Short sticks are not used as clubs. They are a fast strike tool used against and to break the small bones in the hands, and as a thrust tool,and as a blocker against a knife or other weapon in an incoming hand. The advantage is that they are very light, and can be carried in the inside pocket of a jacket with no problem at all, and can be improvised from almost anything and discarded if need be. A chair rung, piece of broom stick, tree branch, tool handle like a hammer handle. Heck, I see walkers and joggers carrying a short stick all the time for anti dog use. They carry openly in the hand. No law against it.
JN01
Member
Interesting ideas. I like the concept of the short (18" range) stick. Ohio law prohibits me from carrying anything to use as a weapon other than a handgun (with a permit). I will soon be relocating to Wisconsin, however, where knives and billy clubs are allowed in addition to pistols.
I do have a cane, but as others have noted, a short stick would be easier to use in close quarters. I also like the idea of having it handy but not in the way, if I can come up with a method of keeping it on my person while easily accessible.
This thread is great food for thought.
stickwhistler
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Why not a stick in two pieces i.e. screw together (like a pool cue).
That way it would be a stick/cane when you needed it to be,
or two short sticks when appropriate, to be kept in your jacket/coat 'pocket'.
AStone
Member
Carl, that's my main reason for carrying my stick. Seriously.
I've been attacked repeatedly by dogs in my life, starting at age 8 - which altered my relationship to dogs forever - but twice since then.
I was confronted - though not attacked - about two months by a young German Shepard in a local park. The owner was walking both his large dogs off leash in total violation of local laws. The Shepard saw me at the top of a hill, got his hackles up and ran up the hill at me growling, the man owner trying to call it back to no avail. I have no idea why the dog had that reaction. I was simply standing looking over the city. I had said nothing and wasn't even looking at the dogs or their owner.
When the dog got within 30' of me, I pulled my 18" stick out of my fanny pack (either it or my day pack always go with me if I leave the house with canteen, layers and rain jacket at least). I held it up visibly and spoke sternly to the dog: "No!" Repeatedly. The dog stopped in it's tracks. Continued to bark and growl.
When people ask me about why I carry a stick, which is infrequent, I answer, "It's my dog stick, because I walk or bike every where (I own no vehicle right now), and I've been attacked or confronted several times in my life."
Of course, some dogs have only two legs and walk upright.
So, if pressed, I'm prepared to use it to defend myself from attack by a two-legger.
Police have clearly and repeatedly seen my stick on my pack - including an officer that walked right past me on the side walk near the police station - and they've never said anything or even looked twice.
Ok guys,no disrespect intended.I can see using a short small dia. stick to discourage a dog but don't see it as an effective defense tool.I guess it all depends on how bad your attacker wants to hurt you.
Have any of you actually used one to stop a determined attack? A lot of things look real good in sparing practice but don't work exactly the same in real life.I mean your sparing partner isn't actually trying to kill you.
I would agree that anything is better than nothing but I have to think that some of you are putting too much confidence in a short stick. Please don't be offended.
Have any of you actually used one to stop a determined attack? A lot of things look real good in sparing practice but don't work exactly the same in real life.I mean your sparing partner isn't actually trying to kill you.
I would agree that anything is better than nothing but I have to think that some of you are putting too much confidence in a short stick. Please don't be offended.
AStone
Member
No offense taken, RH. Reasonable questions. We always need to evaluate.
Here's my thoughts about sticks. I'm a small guy (1) and have always carried sticks (2). Even though I carry an EDC knife (Spyderco Manix 2), I trust my stick far more than the knife, and if given a choice between it and the knife for defense, I'll take the stick every time. Give me the range please.
I've not used a stick to stop an attack (other than my hands in the past), but have learned enough about those attacks in my decades that I'm relatively confident that I could do it better with my sticks (18" or 5" kubotan) than with my bare hands or a knife.
Is my revolver better? Sure. But a similar issue applies: speed of deployment. I'd not walk on a dark street in my town with my revolver in hand, but I do so often with my stick.
Is the stick perfect? No way. Not even close. But what is?
I belong to the any tool is better than no tool club. At least I'm very familiar with my stick, which goes every where with me, and I practice basic strikes with it every day.
For what it's worth. I don't suggest it's right for all. It's not. Just my choice for edc.
Here's my thoughts about sticks. I'm a small guy (1) and have always carried sticks (2). Even though I carry an EDC knife (Spyderco Manix 2), I trust my stick far more than the knife, and if given a choice between it and the knife for defense, I'll take the stick every time. Give me the range please.
I've not used a stick to stop an attack (other than my hands in the past), but have learned enough about those attacks in my decades that I'm relatively confident that I could do it better with my sticks (18" or 5" kubotan) than with my bare hands or a knife.
Is my revolver better? Sure. But a similar issue applies: speed of deployment. I'd not walk on a dark street in my town with my revolver in hand, but I do so often with my stick.
Is the stick perfect? No way. Not even close. But what is?
I belong to the any tool is better than no tool club. At least I'm very familiar with my stick, which goes every where with me, and I practice basic strikes with it every day.
For what it's worth. I don't suggest it's right for all. It's not. Just my choice for edc.
AStone
Member
Forgot to mention another reason I like my stick.
With it, I can fake a high strike to the head, neck or ribs,
but at the last msec, can divert that strike really low to a knee.
(I'm very quick because I'm a dancer to fast music.)
A stick to a knee will be more devastating than a Bas Rutten low kick.
With it, I can fake a high strike to the head, neck or ribs,
but at the last msec, can divert that strike really low to a knee.
(I'm very quick because I'm a dancer to fast music.)
A stick to a knee will be more devastating than a Bas Rutten low kick.
Well maby I'm just getting slower,or smarter as I age.I would have had more confidence in a short stick and my speed 20 years ago.As I get older,I have learned that I'm not nearly as good as I thought I was just a few years back.
I would agree you may be fairly effective against a folding knife,provided you see the knife before it is in you.Now days I always carry a Kahr P380 in a front pocket holster.I can put my hand in my pocket fairly fast and can keep it there on a long dark walk to the truck.
I can see part of your ease of carry arguement.My P380 gets carried more than my Glock 36 even though it isn't as effective.
I would just hate to see some of you guys put too much faith in a lesser weapon because of an over inflated confidence in training.I would certinly rather train with my weapon of choice than not, but most attacks are a surprise and don't allow for fancy maneuvers.Personally if I am knocked down and someone is on top of me trying to cut me or bash my head in,I would rather shoot them than try to hit them with a stick.
I would agree you may be fairly effective against a folding knife,provided you see the knife before it is in you.Now days I always carry a Kahr P380 in a front pocket holster.I can put my hand in my pocket fairly fast and can keep it there on a long dark walk to the truck.
I can see part of your ease of carry arguement.My P380 gets carried more than my Glock 36 even though it isn't as effective.
I would just hate to see some of you guys put too much faith in a lesser weapon because of an over inflated confidence in training.I would certinly rather train with my weapon of choice than not, but most attacks are a surprise and don't allow for fancy maneuvers.Personally if I am knocked down and someone is on top of me trying to cut me or bash my head in,I would rather shoot them than try to hit them with a stick.
Owen Sparks
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Ever try to draw, point and fire a concealed pistol while someone is on top of you? Handguns are like sticks in that they are distance weapons.
Carl Levitian
member
"Well maby I'm just getting slower,or smarter as I age.I would have had more confidence in a short stick and my speed 20 years ago.As I get older,I have learned that I'm not nearly as good as I thought I was just a few years back.
I would agree you may be fairly effective against a folding knife,provided you see the knife before it is in you.Now days I always carry a Kahr P380 in a front pocket holster.I can put my hand in my pocket fairly fast and can keep it there on a long dark walk to the truck.
I can see part of your ease of carry arguement.My P380 gets carried more than my Glock 36 even though it isn't as effective.
I would just hate to see some of you guys put too much faith in a lesser weapon because of an over inflated confidence in training.I would certinly rather train with my weapon of choice than not, but most attacks are a surprise and don't allow for fancy maneuvers.Personally if I am knocked down and someone is on top of me trying to cut me or bash my head in,I would rather shoot them than try to hit them with a stick."
The Zimmerman case is a very good example of just why it may be a bad idea to shoot someone even if he's on top of you, if he's unarmed. It's called having other options than shooting. Would he be in trouble if he'd broken some bones in Martins hands or collar bone? Collar bones break amazingly easy, and takes that person out of action. When the fight goes to ground, it's time to get dirty.
I'll be honest, my main interest in non firearm weapons is that I live in Maryland. CCW is not option for me. But even if it were, I'd still want other options available to me for many reasons. Sure, a Kahr in the pocket is a nice thing, but in the end it may not be worth it if you make a mistake. The man in Florida is going to be broke for a couple of decades to come because he shot an unarmed man and there are questions. The contributions will not cover it all. Then, even if you squeak by in the criminal trial, there's the civil unlawful death suit, and still more legal fees for years to come. Law firms don't come cheap. So far, I was not in danger of a suit or charges the two times I used my stick on a low life who was not armed, but tried a strong atrm robbery. I went home each night after talking to the police and slept like a baby.
Then there's the travel issue.
Being retired, my better half and I are spending our kids inheritance by taking the trips we've always wanted to. Rome, Karen wanted to see the Cistene Chapel ceiling and I wanted to tour the collosium. Then it was fun riding around London in the two decker busses, and doing the tourist thing at the British Museum and bed and breakfast inns out in the country driving around the Cotswolds and seeing Stonehenge on the way back to London. It was Europe, but I was not unarmed. This next year we plan on going to Paris and then touring some countryside. Unfortunately one can't carry a gun on a European vacation. But a stick/cane can go anywhere. And if need be, a short stick can be fabricated from almost anything. When I was in the army, we had a course in improvised weapons. Some of the examples they gave us of a short stick was a lower rung kicked or stomped out of a wood chair, a towel rack pulled off a wall, a broom leaned against a wall and stomped on, mop bucket wringer handle unscrewed, a stout length of tree branch. For a strike weapon against sensitive targets, any end on hard object can be used. A tightly rolled up magazine, Sharpie marking pen, or my favorite, the AA mini mag flashlight.
If someone was on top of me, and that someone was an unarmed person, I'd really rather have my AA mini mag for some strikes to the collar bone, elbow, eye socket, ear/temple/mastoid gland, family jewels, kidney punches, than shoot him. I'd even rather have s small sharp knife to make a few strategic cuts. You don't have to outfight they guy, just be mean and underhanded enough to really hurt him. That means having something right there already in your hand when the bad stuff hits the fan. You can't walk around with a gun in your hand, but who's gonna say jack about a pen, carpenters pencil, or a mini mag, or a short stick?
Even if the impossible happened, and Maryland passed a CCW law, I'd still go with and practice with my non forearm weapons just to give me the non lethal options. It's a heck of a lot less headache to beat the ever loving dog stuff out of a punk trying to rob you than shoot him. And you'll go on with your life with no problems or lawyers fees.
Sometimes a gun is not the right solution to a problem. This is why cops carry a stick.
But your most important tool is the lump of gray stuff between your ears. Use your head to use options. Life will be easier.
Carl.
I would agree you may be fairly effective against a folding knife,provided you see the knife before it is in you.Now days I always carry a Kahr P380 in a front pocket holster.I can put my hand in my pocket fairly fast and can keep it there on a long dark walk to the truck.
I can see part of your ease of carry arguement.My P380 gets carried more than my Glock 36 even though it isn't as effective.
I would just hate to see some of you guys put too much faith in a lesser weapon because of an over inflated confidence in training.I would certinly rather train with my weapon of choice than not, but most attacks are a surprise and don't allow for fancy maneuvers.Personally if I am knocked down and someone is on top of me trying to cut me or bash my head in,I would rather shoot them than try to hit them with a stick."
The Zimmerman case is a very good example of just why it may be a bad idea to shoot someone even if he's on top of you, if he's unarmed. It's called having other options than shooting. Would he be in trouble if he'd broken some bones in Martins hands or collar bone? Collar bones break amazingly easy, and takes that person out of action. When the fight goes to ground, it's time to get dirty.
I'll be honest, my main interest in non firearm weapons is that I live in Maryland. CCW is not option for me. But even if it were, I'd still want other options available to me for many reasons. Sure, a Kahr in the pocket is a nice thing, but in the end it may not be worth it if you make a mistake. The man in Florida is going to be broke for a couple of decades to come because he shot an unarmed man and there are questions. The contributions will not cover it all. Then, even if you squeak by in the criminal trial, there's the civil unlawful death suit, and still more legal fees for years to come. Law firms don't come cheap. So far, I was not in danger of a suit or charges the two times I used my stick on a low life who was not armed, but tried a strong atrm robbery. I went home each night after talking to the police and slept like a baby.
Then there's the travel issue.
Being retired, my better half and I are spending our kids inheritance by taking the trips we've always wanted to. Rome, Karen wanted to see the Cistene Chapel ceiling and I wanted to tour the collosium. Then it was fun riding around London in the two decker busses, and doing the tourist thing at the British Museum and bed and breakfast inns out in the country driving around the Cotswolds and seeing Stonehenge on the way back to London. It was Europe, but I was not unarmed. This next year we plan on going to Paris and then touring some countryside. Unfortunately one can't carry a gun on a European vacation. But a stick/cane can go anywhere. And if need be, a short stick can be fabricated from almost anything. When I was in the army, we had a course in improvised weapons. Some of the examples they gave us of a short stick was a lower rung kicked or stomped out of a wood chair, a towel rack pulled off a wall, a broom leaned against a wall and stomped on, mop bucket wringer handle unscrewed, a stout length of tree branch. For a strike weapon against sensitive targets, any end on hard object can be used. A tightly rolled up magazine, Sharpie marking pen, or my favorite, the AA mini mag flashlight.
If someone was on top of me, and that someone was an unarmed person, I'd really rather have my AA mini mag for some strikes to the collar bone, elbow, eye socket, ear/temple/mastoid gland, family jewels, kidney punches, than shoot him. I'd even rather have s small sharp knife to make a few strategic cuts. You don't have to outfight they guy, just be mean and underhanded enough to really hurt him. That means having something right there already in your hand when the bad stuff hits the fan. You can't walk around with a gun in your hand, but who's gonna say jack about a pen, carpenters pencil, or a mini mag, or a short stick?
Even if the impossible happened, and Maryland passed a CCW law, I'd still go with and practice with my non forearm weapons just to give me the non lethal options. It's a heck of a lot less headache to beat the ever loving dog stuff out of a punk trying to rob you than shoot him. And you'll go on with your life with no problems or lawyers fees.
Sometimes a gun is not the right solution to a problem. This is why cops carry a stick.
But your most important tool is the lump of gray stuff between your ears. Use your head to use options. Life will be easier.
Carl.
Brian Williams
Moderator Emeritus
Nem, Just how big is that fanny pack to conceal an 18 inch stick?
My lg fanny pack will hold a 12" stick and my sm one will hold a wallet and cell phone, a pair of 2 piece chopsticks and an Opinel 6 and I am 210lbs.
My lg fanny pack will hold a 12" stick and my sm one will hold a wallet and cell phone, a pair of 2 piece chopsticks and an Opinel 6 and I am 210lbs.
IMHO the Zimmerman case is a unique example.We could argue the merrits of it but would wind up way off subject.I will only say that I would not have made some of his choices which left him open to prosecution.
I can see the short stick as useful, but to me, only when a gun isn't an option.I would hate to use a gun on anyone but in a real life and death situation,I would be very glad to have one.
I can see the short stick as useful, but to me, only when a gun isn't an option.I would hate to use a gun on anyone but in a real life and death situation,I would be very glad to have one.
Owen Sparks
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The advantageof a stick is that you can almost always have it near by in places like your job where you may not be able to carry a gun or have a weapon of any kind. For example,
there is a heavy 1" diamiter chrome plated steel pipe in the coat rack by the door just a few feet away from my desk. I can have it out and in my hands in just seconds and yes, I practice with it when no one is around.
there is a heavy 1" diamiter chrome plated steel pipe in the coat rack by the door just a few feet away from my desk. I can have it out and in my hands in just seconds and yes, I practice with it when no one is around.
Carl Levitian
member
"IMHO the Zimmerman case is a unique example.We could argue the merrits of it but would wind up way off subject.I will only say that I would not have made some of his choices which left him open to prosecution.
I can see the short stick as useful, but to me, only when a gun isn't an option.I would hate to use a gun on anyone but in a real life and death situation,I would be very glad to have one."
And who gets to make that decision of it being life or death? I'll tell you who, a jury of 12 cheese heads who may or may not like you because of THEIR own beliefs and politics that may not go along with what you believe. Anytime an armed person shoots an unarmed person, the doo-doo is going to get severe. Just no way around it in this political correct world we find ourselves living in.
Unless there is a huge visible disparity of force, like a very elderly person shoots an intruder, or a person of smaller stature shoots someone that looks like Swartzeneger, you're coming from behind in court. And it will go to court. I'm not sure that is a good thing with a liberal jury. Go ahead and carry gun, but have some less than lethal options and tools on standby just in case.
The Zimmerman case is very similar to what we are talking about. Shoot an unarmed strong arm robber and legions of his family will be on the news at 6, telling the world what good boy he was. And yo all have o go hire a lawyer and there goes your retirement play money. Yet smack him a good one in the temple with the butt end of a mini mag, and nobody is ever gonna hear about it except for the arresting officers that book him.
Carl.
I can see the short stick as useful, but to me, only when a gun isn't an option.I would hate to use a gun on anyone but in a real life and death situation,I would be very glad to have one."
And who gets to make that decision of it being life or death? I'll tell you who, a jury of 12 cheese heads who may or may not like you because of THEIR own beliefs and politics that may not go along with what you believe. Anytime an armed person shoots an unarmed person, the doo-doo is going to get severe. Just no way around it in this political correct world we find ourselves living in.
Unless there is a huge visible disparity of force, like a very elderly person shoots an intruder, or a person of smaller stature shoots someone that looks like Swartzeneger, you're coming from behind in court. And it will go to court. I'm not sure that is a good thing with a liberal jury. Go ahead and carry gun, but have some less than lethal options and tools on standby just in case.
The Zimmerman case is very similar to what we are talking about. Shoot an unarmed strong arm robber and legions of his family will be on the news at 6, telling the world what good boy he was. And yo all have o go hire a lawyer and there goes your retirement play money. Yet smack him a good one in the temple with the butt end of a mini mag, and nobody is ever gonna hear about it except for the arresting officers that book him.
Carl.
I wish you well Carl but I am concerned that you may be killed by your reluctance to use enough force.I am also concerned that some feel that their training will make up for choosing a lesser weapon.I'm not saying deadly force is always necessary but I do want that option to protect myself and my family.
By all means train with anything and everything but I want to leave all my options available.
By all means train with anything and everything but I want to leave all my options available.
Owen Sparks
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Suppose Zimmerman had been carrying a stick or cane of some sort?
If Martin did attack him like he claimed he could have whacked Martin on the forearm or knee and put an end to it without ever drawing his pistol. After all, that is what the police do. They carry a night stick, PR 24 or collapsible baton of some sort and only use their pistols as a last resort. If Zimmerman had used a stick as his first option we probably would never have heard of either of them.
The problem with carrying a pistol alone is that it does not give you that less than lethal option. It is like that old saying:
“When your only tool is a hammer every problem looks like a nail.”
A stick is almost always non-lethal as long as you stay off the head. Some of us are big advocates of carrying a stick or cane but that does not mean leaving your pistol at home. If you do have to draw your pistol a stick in the other hand will give you another layer of defense that will keep the bad guy at a distance and buy you more time to draw. This could mean the difference between life and death if the bad guy has a knife. A stick in hand is MUCH faster than a concealed handgun in a holster.
If Martin did attack him like he claimed he could have whacked Martin on the forearm or knee and put an end to it without ever drawing his pistol. After all, that is what the police do. They carry a night stick, PR 24 or collapsible baton of some sort and only use their pistols as a last resort. If Zimmerman had used a stick as his first option we probably would never have heard of either of them.
The problem with carrying a pistol alone is that it does not give you that less than lethal option. It is like that old saying:
“When your only tool is a hammer every problem looks like a nail.”
A stick is almost always non-lethal as long as you stay off the head. Some of us are big advocates of carrying a stick or cane but that does not mean leaving your pistol at home. If you do have to draw your pistol a stick in the other hand will give you another layer of defense that will keep the bad guy at a distance and buy you more time to draw. This could mean the difference between life and death if the bad guy has a knife. A stick in hand is MUCH faster than a concealed handgun in a holster.
ArfinGreebly
Moderator Emeritus
Sucker Punch
I suppose a discussion of this particular configuration is better suited to S&T, but it seems to me that if you've been sucker punched (as, indeed, I myself have been) you may find yourself laid out on the ground having had no opportunity to deploy a stick of any length.
It could well be that all you have left is access to a pocket.
In the Martin/Zimmerman case, one of the posited scenarios is that the initiating action was a sucker punch.
I'm not sure how you guard against that with a stick, unless you draw it in advance, and I'm unclear whether that would be seen as escalation.
I suppose a discussion of this particular configuration is better suited to S&T, but it seems to me that if you've been sucker punched (as, indeed, I myself have been) you may find yourself laid out on the ground having had no opportunity to deploy a stick of any length.
It could well be that all you have left is access to a pocket.
In the Martin/Zimmerman case, one of the posited scenarios is that the initiating action was a sucker punch.
I'm not sure how you guard against that with a stick, unless you draw it in advance, and I'm unclear whether that would be seen as escalation.
I think that's more a "right tool for the job." I have seen several cases where a knife (which is also deadly force) was used by a knocked-prone defender against an unarmed attacker, and it was seen in justified in both of them. There's probably more than few LEO cases like that too (knocked down, shot the guy on top of him)
In those cases though there was no question as to provocation or unneeded confrontation.
In those cases though there was no question as to provocation or unneeded confrontation.
Owen Sparks
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A stick in hand does not need to be drawn.
AStone
Member
Brian said:
Brian, I've carried a large Mountain Smith similar to this one for a decade or more; it's literally the smallest 'pack' I walk out the door with. (If not it, then my 35L Gregory day pack, which carries a bigger stick.) I can pack a rain jacket or fleece jacket, my water bottle, first aid kit, a snack and my stick. It swallows my 16" with only 2" sticking out for me to grab. With my 18", about 4" stick out. But again, it's never raised an eyebrow in this town. But again, I live in Maine, not Boston or NYC or SF. Things are different here.
Arf said:
Arf, I agree that there's no magic bullet to take care of every situation.
No gun, knife, stick, martial art, sword or howitzer is perfect. All we can do is the best we can.
Like others here, I'm not advocating sticks over guns. It's just another tool in my kit, and in many cases, I think I'll do better with it than my revolver. In other cases, the revolver would get the call. In other cases, I'll just die. Ce la vi.
alaskanativeson
Member
R H Clark said:
Read my post HERE. Having a tool, any tool, depends on how you use it. I'm close to 50, I was mid 40's when that happened. WAY out of shape still in spite of all the changes. No one's going to mistake me for an athlete. No one's going to mistake me for a fighter. However, unfortunately for him, one guy DID mistake me for a victim. Have a tool, have the knowledge to apply it effectively, and don't hesitate when you need to do booth.
Owen Sparks
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I worked as a bouncer and had to use my pool cue butt half several times but I never hit anyone in the head with it. I once tried to break up a dog fight with a 26" length of rattan with absolutly NO results. That is when I realized that light weight sticks are useless against a determined opponant.
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